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Grind Badges Unlocking New Mortal Skills
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:37 am    Post subject: Grind Badges Unlocking New Mortal Skills Reply with quote

It'd make them a lot more worthwhile. Especially if they take two months to do - looking at you, door grind.

Specifically: every 500 point badge would unlock a 10 CP skill, and every 1000 point badge would unlock a 15 CP skill. Neither skill has any other prerequisites, so you can always buy them immediately upon unlocking them.

I think this would do wonders for build diversity since you'd have a whole giant pool of skills to unlock and use and mix in and whatnot. You don't really have much diversity at T3 since most classes are less "here's a few paths you can take that mostly end up equally viable" and more "here's what you need to be competent, and you can't deviate from this".

I have a few ideas for these skills - wouldn't want to ask the devs to do a grand project like this from scratch, and I think they'd sell the idea of what I'm after. Going from the top...

---

500 Alcohol: Binge Drinker - Alcohol and potions cost 0 AP to use.
1000 Alcohol: Drunken Master - Drunk now grants an additional +1 damage to melee and HtH attacks and +10% defense, but an additional -5% penalty to attack.

500 Angels: Wing Ripper - Killing angels grants +1 AP.
1000 Angels: Profane Act - Killing angels refunds all AP and MP spent on the killing blow. (AoE attacks can't trigger this.)

500 Books: Speed Reader - Books cost 0 AP to use and grant Active Imagination for 2 hours, restoring +1 MP every tick. (Multiple uses refresh time - does not stack.)
1000 Books: Magic Scribe - For 3 AP, 1 Book, and 2x the MP cost of any spell you know, you can create a single-use scroll of a chosen spell usable by anyone, with an MP cost to use equal to the cost of the spell. Using a Holy Book, Arcane Book, or Unholy Book applies Consecrate Spell, Deep Spellcraft (Eldritch Blast), or Taint Spell, respectively, to the spell in the scroll. (You can't learn spells off scrolls.)

50000 Damage Dealt: Wrecking Ball - Deal +3 damage to wards, doors, glyphs, and fortifications.
100000 Damage Dealt: Annihilation - Your damage floor is increased by +4.

50000 Damage Taken: Quick Healer - +5 HP. When below 50% health, heal 1 HP per tick to 50% health.
100000 Damage Taken: Endurance - Upon taking fatal damage, survive the hit with 1 HP and gain Enduring for 10 seconds, making you invulnerable to damage. Afterwards, gain Exhausted Endurance for 24 hours, preventing this from activating again. (There is a visible message when this triggers.)

500 Deaths: Strong Return - Respawning restores 50% MP.
1000 Deaths: Unfinished Business - Reduces respawn cost by 5 AP.

500 Demons: Jubilation - Killing demons restores 5 MP.
1000 Demons: Blessed Deed - Killing demons bestows Favor upon you for 5 minutes. The next time you would spend MP, refund the cost and remove Favor.

500 Doors Destroyed: Momentum - Destroying a door grants 1 AP and makes entering cost 0 AP.
1000 Doors Destroyed: Recycling - Destroying a door grants a Piece of Wood. If your inventory is full, it drops on the ground instead.

500 Doors Repaired: Practiced Repairs - Repairing doors costs 2 less AP.
1000 Doors Repaired: Reinforcement - You can spend 1 AP and a Piece of Wood to add +25 health to a door, up to three times.

500 Food: Feasting - Eating food grants the Well Fed buff for 5 minutes, increasing healing from all sources by 1. The duration stacks with multiple food items eaten.
1000 Food: Shared Meal - You can share food with another player, causing both of you to heal 5 HP. (Doesn't count as food eaten for the other player.)

15000 HP Healed: Mending - Increases all sources of healing and regeneration, incoming and outgoing, by 1.
25000 HP Healed: Resuscitate - You can detect how old corpses are and who they belong to. If a corpse is less than 3 hours old, you can spend 5 AP to attempt to resuscitate it, reducing the player's respawn cost by 3 AP.

500 Items Crafted: Speedy Crafting - Reduces the AP cost for crafting by 1.
1000 Items Crafted: Efficiency - Reduces the amount of items required to craft by 1, to a minimum of 1. (Plate mail would take 9 steel and 3 leather, but carving knives are still 1 steel.)

500 Items Repaired: Skilled Repair - Reduces the AP cost for repairs by 1. Reduces the AP cost to repair to pristine by 1.
1000 Items Repaired: Masterworkmanship - You can repair items past pristine to masterwork quality for the same cost as pristining them. Masterwork items have the same bonuses as pristine items.

500 Kills: Shadow Hunter - When viewing shadows from outside, you can detect the exact number of revealed players and pets inside.
1000 Kills: Inescapable Hunter - When a player moves away or outside of your square, you know which direction they moved in. When you damage a player, for 1 minute their icon on the map turns red.

500 Locks: Sturdy Locks - You can use a Padlock to lock a door, giving it +25 health. You can also use a Length of Chain to secure a door, giving it another +25 health.
1000 Locks: Side Entrance - You can enter buildings even if the door is closed or locked.

500 Pets: Unworthy Foe - Gain +2 to all damage dealt to pets.
1000 Pets: Cull the Herd - When any pet in the same tile as you dies, restore 1 HP and 1 MP.

500 Pills: Medicated - Removes the negative effects from pills. Painkillers cost 0 AP to use.
1000 Pills: Tolerance - Painkillers grant an additional +1 soak. Amphetamines grant 2 MP.

500 Power Removed: Espionage - Reduces the cost of removing power by 1 AP. Increases the chance to hide in unpowered locations by 10%.
1000 Power Removed: Spycraft - You can't be found in an unpowered location if someone searches. You have no search penalty in unpowered locations. (Provides no protection against Enhanced Senses.)

500 Power Restored: Lighting Expert - Reduces the cost of restoring power by 1 AP. Increases search rate in powered locations by 10%.
1000 Power Restored: Alarm Expert - For 3 AP, you can rig an alarm to a powered location. If the location has power and a player goes inside the location, the alarm will sound and notify everyone in a 3x3 area, inside and out. The alarm is disconnected if the location loses power and must be reset manually after the location regains power.

500 Targets: One in the Chamber - Increases max ammo count for all weapons by 1.
1000 Targets: Speed Loading - After reloading, your next attack costs 0 AP.

---

I'm not particularly attached to any of these. My general philosophy here was to make sure that these were generally accessible to everyone (except books at 1000 - I thought that was too cool to pass up), with a few clear favorites for certain classes or playstyles. I'm more attached to the general idea of new mortal skills unlocked by badges than I am these particular skills.

Let me know what you think.
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Huojin
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:43 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I definitely like the idea of added value to the grinds, it would make the endgame of "welp, I guess I just grind shit now" much more appealing.

Unclear on one thing though - am I right in thinking the scenario you're imagining is, for example, you hit 500 books and you can EITHER spend that 10 CP on something else OR you unlock "Speed Reader" (to use your example) as a skill you can buy?

If you decide not to buy the skill at that stage with the aim of doing so later with other grind CP, is it still available, or is it a one-shot thing?
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 10, 2021 11:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The skills unlock when you hit the badges. They do not come in place of grind CP, nor are you obliged to buy them with the CP. Once they're unlocked, they're there forever since your career stats don't change with each breath, so you could start a new breath with, say, Speed Reader, if you're so inclined.
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 10:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh no man. I think we talked about this back with the Badge CP nerf, and the general conclusion most people had was that there's no reason to reward people for performing the same act 500 or 1000 times. Now this system could end up throwing a important or even meta skill behind a badge.

CrusaderDroid wrote:
The skills unlock when you hit the badges. They do not come in place of grind CP, nor are you obliged to buy them with the CP. Once they're unlocked, they're there forever since your career stats don't change with each breath, so you could start a new breath with, say, Speed Reader, if you're so inclined.

CrusaderDroid wrote:
500 Books: Speed Reader - Books cost 0 AP to use and grant Active Imagination for 2 hours, restoring +1 MP every tick. (Multiple uses refresh time - does not stack.)

The OTHER problem was that veterans already had a monumental, 100+ CP advantage over newbies. Letting them read books for 0 AP would mean they level up almost twice as fast which would be horrible, specially at the start of a breath.
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Badziew
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 12:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The listed bonuses are just examples, they can be toned down or even completely redesigned to not break the metagame, so it is not a problem.

The problem is rather that if the new Skills are too powerful then everyone will buy them instead of normal Class Skills, making everyone's build look exactly the same - and if the new Skills are too weak then nobody would ever buy them so it would be a waste of dev time to even implement them.

The only way I see for this to work would be if the Skill was bough automatically when the badge is granted - which effectively just replaces the CP rewards with other effects, there's no need even to call those effects "Skills".

Another idea, probably more balanced: make the bonuses similar to character equipment - gaining a badge only unlocks its bonus, but then character has to activate it to gain its benefit, and only a limited amount of bonuses can be active simultaneously.
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oath2order
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 4:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

> 500 Alcohol: Binge Drinker - Alcohol and potions cost 0 AP to use.

Seems way too OP for 500.
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 11, 2021 7:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Badziew wrote:
The listed bonuses are just examples, they can be toned down or even completely redesigned to not break the metagame, so it is not a problem.

Actually, its a massive problem.
Because every class can access those skills, its highly likely that they'll become basically necessary for one class and/or useless for the others. Balancing it to not be that way would require lots of testing, ideas, and work in general.

I read the rest of your post but still stand by my general assertion. Badges shouldn't become more important than they already are.

EDIT: Actually, one more thing I'd like to note.
Badziew wrote:
The only way I see for this to work would be if the Skill was bough automatically when the badge is granted - which effectively just replaces the CP rewards with other effects, there's no need even to call those effects "Skills".

We discussed this back then and I think it was important--
Basically messing with badge CP in certain ways could upset/alienate the people that farmed for said character points, like you just invalidated all their work. So it would be a bad change to make unless most badge farmers came out and said they were fine with the idea, which seems unlikely.
I can't find the badge CP discussion thread right now but I think this thread could use a link to it, it has a lot of relevant discussion.
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Kylinn
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 12, 2021 12:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe if these were just flavor skills, along the lines of the 1 CP skill back in the original Nexus to randomly change your Aspect. Or Bug-Hunter tee shirts. Things that are neat but wouldn't have any actual effect on game play.
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haliphax
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:13 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think cosmetics or toy skills would be a cool reward, yeah. Anything meaningful (mechanics-wise, i.e. requiring balance) just places more emphasis on the grind, which is treating the symptom and not the problem.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 10:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
The OTHER problem was that veterans already had a monumental, 100+ CP advantage over newbies. Letting them read books for 0 AP would mean they level up almost twice as fast which would be horrible, specially at the start of a breath.


Quote:
I'm not particularly attached to any of these. My general philosophy here was to make sure that these were generally accessible to everyone (except books at 1000 - I thought that was too cool to pass up), with a few clear favorites for certain classes or playstyles. I'm more attached to the general idea of new mortal skills unlocked by badges than I am these particular skills.


Seriously. I don't care about these specific abilities I threw out. They're just stuff to get the ball rolling. We can just as easily say that you can't get the skills on a new breath until after the badge unlocks, and we've solved that problem already.

But also, no, that wouldn't really be much of a problem. The highly asynchronous manner of gameplay coupled with the incredibly high lethality with nearly everyone means that there's very little practical difference between a level 5 and a level 30 without innate armor if one finds the other offline, save for about 20 HP and how much exp they're worth. At worst, you get petmasters earlier, who instawin fights against unprepared people, but that's not enough to lock down the entire breath.

Quote:
The problem is rather that if the new Skills are too powerful then everyone will buy them instead of normal Class Skills, making everyone's build look exactly the same - and if the new Skills are too weak then nobody would ever buy them so it would be a waste of dev time to even implement them.


What I tried to do with the ones I made was to make them niche enough that you probably don't want to pick them up if you're not trying to use them - there's no reason to get, say, a bonus to Drunk if you don't really rely on either melee or defense, and giving doors more hit points requires a very specific goal that many, many characters simply won't bother with. If something like this went through, I'd like to see very specifically targeted niche things, accordingly - something that you'd go out of your way to get if it interested you, but would otherwise ignore since you have better things to spend CP on.

Reiterating that I'm not attached to the stuff I made - just the general design pattern behind it.

Quote:

Another idea, probably more balanced: make the bonuses similar to character equipment - gaining a badge only unlocks its bonus, but then character has to activate it to gain its benefit, and only a limited amount of bonuses can be active simultaneously.


This might be a good idea though. It's definitely worth exploring.

Quote:
> 500 Alcohol: Binge Drinker - Alcohol and potions cost 0 AP to use.

Seems way too OP for 500.


1. Just getting the ball rolling.
2. Better to start at OP and then roll it back to balanced than to start so weak that there's no clear direction to buff it in.

Quote:
Actually, its a massive problem.
Because every class can access those skills, its highly likely that they'll become basically necessary for one class and/or useless for the others. Balancing it to not be that way would require lots of testing, ideas, and work in general.


...not really? This is making a ton of assumptions about, well, everything, that makes me wonder if you read my post or gave it a fair shake at all. This is not a particularly hard game to play - you can fairly easily theorize the effects of a not-insignificant number of changes without having to playtest it at all. Nor are ideas particularly hard to come by - EVERYONE has them, they're not special. It's a fair amount of work, sure, but that alone isn't grounds to reject something posted here out of hand. Otherwise, this particular forum should just be deleted, since everything would take some amount of work, and how dare we express our opinion about anything we want to see in the game.

Quote:
Maybe if these were just flavor skills, along the lines of the 1 CP skill back in the original Nexus to randomly change your Aspect. Or Bug-Hunter tee shirts. Things that are neat but wouldn't have any actual effect on game play.


Well, that'd defeat the purpose of this thread. The idea was to introduce enough skills and enough uniquely specialized skills so that you could reasonably get to a point where you could have several players in the same T3 class with meaningfully different builds.

Quote:
Anything meaningful (mechanics-wise, i.e. requiring balance) just places more emphasis on the grind, which is treating the symptom and not the problem.


Not really. The grind is already desirable for the CP alone - unless there are huge T3 changes that we haven't been made privy to, lots of classes tend to have at least 2-3 skills you really want to stretch to get, with a few like Holy Champion and Lich being particularly amazing if you can get most or all of their available skills. Tossing in some really niche, possibly useful Mortal skills, some or most of which not every character might want, isn't going to break the bank here.

Besides, the grind's already embedded anyways. There's solid incentive for it, and while some of them are absolutely terrible (DOOR GRIND), others end up generating interaction with other players anyways (any search-centric grind, healing, damage dealt...), which is pretty important to making sure you don't have people checking out after 30. Maybe it's not the best solution, but the grind's the solution we've got right now.
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 13, 2021 11:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrusaderDroid wrote:

...not really? This is making a ton of assumptions about, well, everything, that makes me wonder if you read my post or gave it a fair shake at all. This is not a particularly hard game to play - you can fairly easily theorize the effects of a not-insignificant number of changes without having to playtest it at all. Nor are ideas particularly hard to come by - EVERYONE has them, they're not special.

Well, I wanted to say I don't have personal beef with your thread but you said "Nor are ideas particularly hard to come by" so now I do. Lets get down to that.

90% of the ideas a human being can possibly have are bad. Maybe 99%.
Try to theorycraft anything, its rather easy to come up with a bad idea. I mean we would love any ideas that fill certain criteria. For example, do you have a idea for a special effect that could realistically be added to a innate weapon? Keep in mind that it mustn't be a one and done effect since we don't want people swinging their innate just once and then switching to a different weapon, and the effect must make sense on the class you're adding it to.

CrusaderDroid wrote:

It's a fair amount of work, sure, but that alone isn't grounds to reject something posted here out of hand. Otherwise, this particular forum should just be deleted, since everything would take some amount of work, and how dare we express our opinion about anything we want to see in the game.

The point is that its more difficult because you have to take into account everyone. Look at spells for example, you don't have to take into account Seraphs casting glyphs and using mystic mail.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 6:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SaltedSalmon wrote:

Well, I wanted to say I don't have personal beef with your thread but you said "Nor are ideas particularly hard to come by" so now I do.


This really shouldn't be enough to take issue with anything. Anyone can come up with an idea.

Quote:
90% of the ideas a human being can possibly have are bad. Maybe 99%.


This isn't an argument, though. This is a spurious, made-up statistic that attempts to dismiss my own argument through what looks like some appeal to averages. I'm open to working with you to figure out a better method of doing things here - Badziew had a neat idea earlier - but if this is your main thrust, I can't really do anything with something that's so openly fallacious.

Quote:
Try to theorycraft anything, its rather easy to come up with a bad idea.


Yeah. It's why I've practiced my design skills elsewhere thoroughly. Game design's a passion of mine, so I've gotten my design process down pretty carefully. If there's bad ideas here, I'd love to hear why they're bad ideas instead of just labeling them bad ideas without further elaboration.

Quote:
I mean we would love any ideas that fill certain criteria. For example, do you have a idea for a special effect that could realistically be added to a innate weapon? Keep in mind that it mustn't be a one and done effect since we don't want people swinging their innate just once and then switching to a different weapon, and the effect must make sense on the class you're adding it to.


Sure. Challenge accepted, even though I don't really see who's the "we" in this situation. I'm not keen on derailing my own thread, but if you're going to call me out like that, I might as well step up.

For all of these, we can safely file them underneath some 60 CP skill if it's too powerful to be folded into the base effect. I prioritized getting them to a usable, desirable state over whether or not they merit their own 60 CP skill. I'm a bit constrained by the "can't be a one-off" condition - I think there's perfectly valid design space in one-off weapons - but I gave it a good shot anyways.

---

Crimson Gladius: Attacks with the Crimson Gladius stack Harbinger of War twice as fast. Always triggers Harbinger of War's bonus supplemental damage.

Oaken Greatbow: On an attack that misses, 33% chance for the arrow to curve and hit the target anyways. This roll is checked after fixed chances to dodge attacks, such as Defensive Stance.

Clockwork Blade: Attacks grant one stack of Charged that lasts for 5 minutes, up to 8 stacks. The next time an enemy triggers Arc Lightning or Clockwork Cloud, consume all stacks to increase the damage dealt to the attacker by the number of stacks consumed.

Wing Shards: Gains accuracy against damaged targets - +5% attack added at <100% health, +10% at <50%, and +15% at <25%.

Lightning Strike: On a miss, grants Supercharged for 1 tick, which doubles the damage of your next Lightning Strike.

Water Jet: Skips half of the enemy's soak.

Blade of Light: Deals +5 damage VS Glyphs VS Good.

Verdant Sling: Hitting a player or pet with the Verdant Sling heals your most damaged pet equal to the damage dealt.

Lashing Kick: Deals 3x damage on a critical hit instead of the normal 1.5x damage.

Soft Strike: Critical hits ignore soak.

Cobra Strike: Triggers poison effects each time you hit the target. Critical hits apply Poison, equivalent to the Defiler's Poison, for 15 ticks.

Bite: Gains double effect from Blood Frenzy's damage bonus.

Brightbow: Benefits from any spell familiarity bonuses you have. Changes its damage type to the target's lowest soak type.

Ghost Tendrils: Each point of MP removed applies a stack of Chilled for 5 minutes, decreasing their defense by -1%.

Teeth of the Damned: Each hit reduces the target's Unholy soak by 2, up to 6. At 6, the target gains Damned for 5 minutes, and suffers -100% defense against AoE attacks.

Tailwhip: Hitting pets knocks them down and prevents them from countering you when you hit them with this attack.

Whip of Torment: Restores 2 MP every hit. Restores 2 MP on killing blows. Restores 2 MP on angel kills.

Razor Wings: Striking a poisoned target grants you Poisoned Wings for 5 minutes. Poisoned Wings causes Razor Wings to spread poison to any player it hits.

Metamorphic Unguis: Each hit applies a -1 soak penalty for 10 ticks. Hits from the same damage type refresh the duration, while hits from different damage types apply another -1 soak penalty.

---

If I skipped an innate, it's because I thought it had enough of a use case already. I'll probably post these in some other thread so they won't get lost.

Quote:

The point is that its more difficult because you have to take into account everyone. Look at spells for example, you don't have to take into account Seraphs casting glyphs and using mystic mail.


This isn't an argument either. This is just trying to discourage people from even trying to suggest things because it's "more difficult" or "too hard". I can't accept this statement at all - even if the given example is too far, that's not grounds to dismiss the entire foundation it's built upon.

You've asked for people to post more in this forum on the Discord, but it feels like you're trying to shut this down on what looks like personal, emotional reasons. It gives me the impression of a bully. I'm fine with working with you to figure out some happy medium. I'm not fine at all with you dismissing the entire thread because of some past argument years ago, or because it looks too hard for you. Please, give me something to work with here, so we can make this better.
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrusaderDroid wrote:
You've asked for people to post more in this forum on the Discord, but it feels like you're trying to shut this down on what looks like personal, emotional reasons.

Why do you have to make the situation become like this?
Yes, if someone asked you to come up with buffs for 17 innate weapons I'd assume that was a bullying attempt. But why would you assume I meant that you needed to come up with buffs for 17 weapons? That wasn't mean to be read literally, how did you read it literally?
Its all me trying to drive it home that base abilities are going to affect everyone and have design restrictions. Of course I don't know if LITERALLY 90% of the ideas that can exist are bad, its already blatant that you can't gauge something like that using math. And I'm not requesting that you come up with 17 effects for weapon innates, I'm making a argument.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 8:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Why do you have to make the situation become like this?


Well, you're trying to shut down a suggestion I feel strongly about, without offering any direction to work toward or any way to work toward a compromise. I have to make a spirited defense of my own work.

But also, I'm just trying to post here and do some design work, and I'm really not comfortable with you blaming me like somehow the situation is my fault for not accepting your arguments and giving up.

Quote:
Yes, if someone asked you to come up with buffs for 17 innate weapons I'd assume that was a bullying attempt.


Really? Because honestly, that was a really fun design prompt. I love those - seriously, thanks. No, the stuff that feels like bullying is how you've asked for more activity here in the past, but then dismiss my suggestion without offering any feedback that I can use to improve it instead. Anyone can tear down - the true mark of skill is building it back up afterwards.

Quote:
But why would you assume I meant that you needed to come up with buffs for 17 weapons? That wasn't mean to be read literally, how did you read it literally?


I didn't read it literally. You claimed 90% to 99% of ideas were bad, so I took it upon myself to go above and beyond in satisfying the challenge you set forth for me as an attempt to refute that. Was fun - the restriction really made me think a lot about what would be desirable effects that wouldn't necessarily drown out a good enchanted weapon.


Quote:
Its all me trying to drive it home that base abilities are going to affect everyone and have design restrictions.


Well, yeah. Everyone knows that. That was the whole point of me posting this thread - to expand the usable pool of abilities for all characters and help diversify builds. They don't have to be the abilities I posted - I bet someone's got better ideas for some of them anyways. But I think there's solid design space here that's worth exploring, especially with how a lot of T3 builds end up very similar, and especially with how characters with lots of grind badges end up the same in the end. That there's restrictions doesn't mean it's not worth trying, and that there's restrictions doesn't mean those restrictions have to stay, either.

Quote:
Of course I don't know if LITERALLY 90% of the ideas that can exist are bad, its already blatant that you can't gauge something like that using math.


I'm not much of a fan of hyperbole for this reason. I find it more helpful in arguments to be as precise as possible, as often as possible, to avoid misunderstandings - because that line was what made it feel like bullying, claiming, in effect, that since all those ideas are bad, it's not worth trying. Why ask for more posts here, then?

Quote:
And I'm not requesting that you come up with 17 effects for weapon innates, I'm making a argument.


Oh, I know. I hope you like my comprehensive answer to your argument - I had a lot of fun putting them all together. I think Verdant Sling and Whip of Torment might be my favorites.

Again: I'm fine working with you here to make this suggestion better. I just need something more than "scrap everything, give up, don't touch the sacred designs". Badziew had a neat take - if they're instead a few bonuses that you had to choose from, that would radically alter what kind of power they could have, allowing for bigger effects to make up for only being able to pick three no matter how many you've unlocked. That would be worth exploring further, in my opinion.
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 14, 2021 10:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrusaderDroid wrote:
Really? Because honestly, that was a really fun design prompt. I love those - seriously, thanks. No, the stuff that feels like bullying is how you've asked for more activity here in the past, but then dismiss my suggestion without offering any feedback that I can use to improve it instead. Anyone can tear down - the true mark of skill is building it back up afterwards.

Because I am against the base of the idea.
If someone has a good idea but he went the wrong way about it, you can improve it. Using a suggestion that is currently very popular, if someone made a thread like "Advocate needs a buff" it would work. If the suggestions he makes are bad(Underpowered, overpowered, whatever) you can improve on it because Advocate truly needs a buff.

But I'm not fighting specific skills you've suggested here, I'm against adding skills as a reward for doing the badge grind.
To give you a idea, the ideal solution was to remove badge CP from the game entirely, but that wasn't possible because the devs (reasonably) don't want to upset people that spent so much time and AP grinding badges. In such circumstances I don't see why one would add more stuff to badges.

CrusaderDroid wrote:
I didn't read it literally. You claimed 90% to 99% of ideas were bad, so I took it upon myself to go above and beyond in satisfying the challenge you set forth for me as an attempt to refute that. Was fun - the restriction really made me think a lot about what would be desirable effects that wouldn't necessarily drown out a good enchanted weapon.

Well there's a problem there, because I can't discuss this without further derailing the thread.
For a vague reply, some of the ideas are fine, others are also fine even if they probably need a buff or nerf, but others encourage repetitive weapon switching and are less of a tool for ferals and more for guild members, and at last some have miscellaneous issues that require going into detail. You could slap this in the stickied megathread and I'll get into details.
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