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Lowering your own innate armor
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 5:17 pm    Post subject: Lowering your own innate armor Reply with quote

I think it should be possible to willingly lower innate armor/resistances that you have, such as removing Way of Earth.
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 20, 2020 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, +1, I know it wouldn't be the most commonly-used feature, but many people want to deathfarm eventually or just provide people with EXP in their downtime, but if they've got a tonne of innate soak and defence% that becomes a pretty tall order. It'd be nice if you could 'switch skills off' in general, but failing that, the innate armours're the most significant part of it. Should probably just have them display as a part of your char's equipment in your inventory screen and be unequippable/toggleable for the usual 1 AP (obviously dropping or trading them would still be barred).

Plus, it'd let Sohdbrimks' Bag of XP actually have the full HP IB can get without messing up people with Chitinous Armour, haha.
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haliphax
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 22, 2020 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honest question, and not trying to snark:

Where does the line get drawn? Should a Seraph be able to disable their always-on aura, as well?
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Repth
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 6:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The only way I would want to see this implemented is by giving you the option on respawn. Only then can you choose to turn it on or off. Once you're alive, tough luck.
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sohdbrimks
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 23, 2020 7:23 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you don't want the skill, then don't buy the skill. I don't see why we need this, it makes no sense.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

sohdbrimks wrote:
If you don't want the skill, then don't buy the skill. I don't see why we need this, it makes no sense.


This argument makes no sense. Alyss just explained that it'd make deathfarming easier. For T1s, this is a massive boost in their exp by expanding their target range. You'd gimp yourself if you went Paladin and didn't buy Divine Armor with your limited CP - especially Seraphs, who want it to function and don't necessarily have to deathfarm before 30.

If you don't want this as a feature, remove deathfarming completely first. Otherwise, when you have to spend a fixed amount of CP to advance to T3 and Divine Armor is so solid for Paladins - let alone the case for Chitinous Armor and IB - I don't see any compelling reason to oppose this.
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sohdbrimks
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just don't think it makes sense RP-wise. Most of our characters are fighting to survive, why would they lower their defenses on purpose? It feels too metagamey to me, its only purpose is to make grinding (deathfarming) easier.

This would actually make my bag of XP character less special, since now anyone could be just like him with the click of a button.
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SaltedSalmon
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 10:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm not sure what bag of EXP's background story is exactly, but I have a feeling it doesn't make much sense lore wise.
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sohdbrimks
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 11:00 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, players are free to create joke characters if they want, I'm just saying it's not something the game should encourage.

Imagine a new player reaches T3 and buys armor, then realizes it's possible to disable it. I can picture the conversation on discord:
new player: so what's the point of disabling armor?
veteran player: so you can grind damage taken easier and get 25 extra CP!

It's totally immersion breaking. And depending on how it's implemented, it might even confuse some people.

As for current deathfarmers. I'd say most of them have some kind of backstory. Recently I saw one that was a mime, the joke being that everyone hates mimes. Then there was Kenny from South Park, but I don't think he plays anymore. And a bag of XP is perhaps a magical bag with infinite xp inside created by some powerful Conduit Smile . Point is that most dedicated deathfarmers have some joke names and can even be explained within the lore. With this suggestion you would start seeing normal characters doing with purely for the grind which I think is not something we should encourage.

It wouldn't ruin the game for me if it was implemented, I would keep playing. I just think it's out of character and might confuse new players.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 1:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

sohdbrimks wrote:
I just don't think it makes sense RP-wise. Most of our characters are fighting to survive, why would they lower their defenses on purpose? It feels too metagamey to me, its only purpose is to make grinding (deathfarming) easier.

This would actually make my bag of XP character less special, since now anyone could be just like him with the click of a button.


This isn't a good argument either. This is an endless war with trapped souls spanning a limitless amount of time. You're completely ignoring the idea of characters that are tired of the fighting and just want to die, a pretty common archetype that extends throughout multiple forms of media - to say nothing of more meta-aware characters that recognize that, for whatever reason, their death would help someone else to be better, and that's what they like.

If it makes your specific character less special, good. There's no reason it should be special when all you did was choose not to take Chitinous Armor.

Quote:
Well, players are free to create joke characters if they want, I'm just saying it's not something the game should encourage.


This is making an erroneous assumption that offering an option is somehow encouraging that option, much the same way that you can drink acid and use grenades from your inventory to obviously self-destructive purposes. It's fallacious as a result. Having an option is not the same as saying "You should take this option" - we could then apply this warped reasoning to Ultimate Suffering for Redeemed.

Quote:
Imagine a new player reaches T3 and buys armor, then realizes it's possible to disable it. I can picture the conversation on discord:
new player: so what's the point of disabling armor?
veteran player: so you can grind damage taken easier and get 25 extra CP!

It's totally immersion breaking. And depending on how it's implemented, it might even confuse some people.


I'll be blunt: your immersion shouldn't get to dictate game design. No one's immersion should - it's impossible to enforce when anyone can arbitrarily go against it, like your literal bag of XP existing in a battle between angels and demons. This is a fundamentally flawed argument in this context, and honestly pretty hypocritical of you to make.

Quote:
As for current deathfarmers. I'd say most of them have some kind of backstory. Recently I saw one that was a mime, the joke being that everyone hates mimes. Then there was Kenny from South Park, but I don't think he plays anymore. And a bag of XP is perhaps a magical bag with infinite xp inside created by some powerful Conduit Smile . Point is that most dedicated deathfarmers have some joke names and can even be explained within the lore.


This proposes an arbitrary barrier to entry to deathfarming that no one else is obliged to read or respect. This also disregards a bunch of existing deathfarmers (most of AuXAuV's lineup, for instance) that don't have any such justification and are doing it because the player is generous enough to leave targets out for exp. This isn't a real argument in favor of anything.

Quote:
With this suggestion you would start seeing normal characters doing with purely for the grind which I think is not something we should encourage.


Something we agree on, if only incidentally. Grinding detrimental stats like deaths and damage taken is pretty dumb. But if it's in the system and people WANT to die, I don't see a compelling reason to get in their way, at least not from what you've posted so far.

Quote:
It wouldn't ruin the game for me if it was implemented, I would keep playing. I just think it's out of character and might confuse new players.


There's plenty of times in media where a character protected by a nonphysical or otherwise magical force willfully lowers their protection. It's out of character NOT to be able to do this, and I think it's downright insulting to imply new players are so unable to think for themselves and ask questions or read the wiki that this would be confusing to them. There's far more confusing things in the game that exist already, such as alchemy and its sixth ingredient being conserved, or Tattoo of Adaptation, that beat "huh, I could turn off my innate armor", and even if there was any confusion, it's a momentary thing that goes away fast upon being explained. That's not worth making painful grinds even more painful.
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Dissident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 5:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it should be possible to disable being a demon so other people can heal my demons for Heal XP and reach the Heal badge CPs faster
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haliphax
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Your build will not be optimized for every grind. If you go with HtH/Melee, you will have a hard time getting Targets Shot. If you go with innate armor, you will have a hard time getting Damage Taken and Deaths. If getting every CP badge is something you're gunning for, it's going to involve at least one reset.

My understanding/interpretation is that at least the Paladin's innate armor, RP-wise, is a gift from the Elder Powers for your piety. If you wanted to refuse that gift, dipping below the good morality threshold would be one way to "disable" it. I figure the same would go for Chitinous Armor, Burning Aura, etc. and dipping above the evil morality threshold.
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 6:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

haliphax wrote:
Your build will not be optimized for every grind. If you go with HtH/Melee, you will have a hard time getting Targets Shot. If you go with innate armor, you will have a hard time getting Damage Taken and Deaths. If getting every CP badge is something you're gunning for, it's going to involve at least one reset.


Except this isn't something that should require a special build, and that's not the argument being made. No one is asking to make every grind easier, the request is specifically "can we disable innate armors?", because they are very useful for the majority of your game time, and are generally a huge sacrifice to pass up. If the only reason anyone can come up with is "it's supposed to be a pain in the ass", maybe there's a problem with the system as a whole instead of this specific idea.

You shouldn't have to reset your character and screw your killers out of potential experience (and angels/demons killed, possibly) just to die faster. You shouldn't have to waste CP on Paladins skipping Divine Armor for something else just to hit T3, either. And you honestly shouldn't have to game the morality system just for this explicit purpose - that's such a blatant workaround that it would have been easier just to allow this requested feature in the first place.
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Dissident
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think my conduit needs another +10 damage so I can grind damage dealt faster and help other people get damage taken too even if they have soak!
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Fellis
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 25, 2020 7:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

edit:

For a real response, what is the goal of the suggestion?
Are you trying to make it:
A: Easier for the person with the innate to deathfarm, or
B: Easier for the attacker to kill the person?

For A, I don't understand the suggestion, because I think heavy soaking folks out on the street die often enough that they aren't troubled by their innates that much. I don't have a lot of experience there so glad to hear opinions.

For B, I think you are treating a symptom of another problem, and that is the kill badges. I think it's a bigger problem that there are T3 vets who are efficiently shadowhunting/EoD/having high damage to clean the streets and they are passing up the hard targets which is why they are around.

I don't think these people are a problem however! They are just playing the game. But I think if you remove the incentives for grinding kills so hard, there will be more targets surviving for hunting XP. Obviously some will still do it, but not all will.

My suggestion would be a "deathfarm" mode where you auto-respawn even offline, for a reduced cost. This would enable people who just want to idle or take a break to gain progress and would put a lot more targets out in the world. Obviously there would have to be some checks for factional conflict to not get abused, but I think that it would be possible.

edit2: Azure mentioned on discord this could also put you in "mortal mode" and respawn you with skills inactive and possibly also please people who don't want innates and make it less abusable.

SaltedSalmon wrote:
I'm not sure what bag of EXP's background story is exactly, but I have a feeling it doesn't make much sense lore wise.


I imagine Bag as a huge hulking IB demon, with a paper bag covering it's face that says "dx" on the front
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