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Faction level differences and raids
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convider
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 6:45 pm    Post subject: Faction level differences and raids Reply with quote

The average faction raids targets about two levels below them.

1) Is this intended behaviour (that will be part of B4)?
2) Is this a problem?
3) Should the game change to encourage/discourage/enhance this level disparity? How so?
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GreatCatatonic
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What is considered the "average faction"? I'm trying to think of who's doing this the most and am having trouble.

OS (Level 10) necessarily has to punch down by at least two levels, and they comprise a good amount of raid activity. Can't really fault them for that.

The level 6-8 factions are all pretty much fair game for each other in terms of challenge and XP reward, so I don't see an issue with an 8 hitting a 6. Also, considering the relatively few factions at those sizes it's going to happen fairly often.

I run a level 6 faction and only in special circumstances (rollover/political) would we think about punching down; the XP is just hardly worth the effort. That said, I do remember when we were starting out our raiding we had to hit smaller guys just because we weren't yet capable of dealing with petshields or big wards and forts; I think everyone has to do that at first, though.

Level 4 factions seem to take up the bulk of the middle of the faction page, and they're usually large enough to be able to coordinate something between a few T3s. I can only imagine that the sheer number of level 2 factions makes them attractive targets, especially if they don't have 1000-HP wards. At this size I don't really see much of an issue with the level gap.

I really just don't think the level difference is that great from step to step, so I'm not inclined to see this as a problem. Of course, my question still stands: what size factions are doing this type of raiding?

--Great
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oath2order
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 9:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, just looking at it the last 10 raid events, a level 6 faction hit a level 2 faction, and apparently tends to do so.

But that's just one example.

To answer your third question, I would argue that little should be done. Factions already get less honor for taking lower sized faction flags.
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Sac
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are going to be exceptions to every rule. e.g.- Divine/Majestic Slayers have pulled off several raids against factions 2-4 levels above them.

Raid composition plays a big part in what target can be tackled. With a VW, NC and WM/Lich team you could quite easily have a level 3 faction clearing 3-4 levels above themselves. Pets are a combat multiplier on offence and having the holy trinity of bash/tank/kill makes it much easier.

On the flip side OS have failed spectacularly on a number of raids on smaller factions. Actives are the combat multiplier on defence.

I have heard and been involved in discussions about "the big guys picking on the little factions". I totally agree that it's a tad unfair to have 8 guys beat down the door of a 3 person faction. Often it isn't 8 guys though, it's the solo VW/Archon/etc who can't make the normal raid time but still wants to get involved or do something more than sit in the SH grinding food/pills/booze/hookers. Unfortunately when he pulls off a solo raid he becomes the worst prick in the world because "the big factions are picking on the little guys". There's got to be something for individuals to do too.

Overall the level of the faction targeted on a raid is usually determined by nothing more than who turns up at the time and what the raid leader thinks they can handle.
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retsamajnin
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PostPosted: Sat Jan 23, 2016 11:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
I have heard and been involved in discussions about "the big guys picking on the little factions". I totally agree that it's a tad unfair to have 8 guys beat down the door of a 3 person faction. Often it isn't 8 guys though, it's the solo VW/Archon/etc who can't make the normal raid time but still wants to get involved or do something more than sit in the SH grinding food/pills/booze/hookers. Unfortunately when he pulls off a solo raid he becomes the worst prick in the world because "the big factions are picking on the little guys". There's got to be something for individuals to do too.


The problem still remains that the little faction can not fight back. Just because you send one or two people on a raid doesn't mean your SH becomes any weaker. The small factions have no chance of retaliating with a counter raid. That is the issue.
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GreatCatatonic
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:36 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retsamajnin wrote:
The problem still remains that the little faction can not fight back. Just because you send one or two people on a raid doesn't mean your SH becomes any weaker. The small factions have no chance of retaliating with a counter raid. That is the issue.


Are factions that get cleared entitled to a revenge raid? Or will you occasionally have to just suck it up and say, "This is the Nexus; I will die, a lot"?

If the raids are repeated or completely lopsided it turns into griefing--a whole 'nother matter, but if I have a small faction and someone from a much larger one solos me, I'm just going to have to pick myself up, dust myself off, and say, "well, shit."

Honest question.

--Great
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Sac
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

retsamajnin wrote:
Quote:
I have heard and been involved in discussions about "the big guys picking on the little factions". I totally agree that it's a tad unfair to have 8 guys beat down the door of a 3 person faction. Often it isn't 8 guys though, it's the solo VW/Archon/etc who can't make the normal raid time but still wants to get involved or do something more than sit in the SH grinding food/pills/booze/hookers. Unfortunately when he pulls off a solo raid he becomes the worst prick in the world because "the big factions are picking on the little guys". There's got to be something for individuals to do too.


The problem still remains that the little faction can not fight back. Just because you send one or two people on a raid doesn't mean your SH becomes any weaker. The small factions have no chance of retaliating with a counter raid. That is the issue.


I absolutely agree with not being able to recap and that it can be frustrating. Although tbh it only sets you back 24 hours if you can't. However this can also be seen as an opportunity to start some coordination to brig some factions together and hit back at the bigger factions, as has happened.
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Nook
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreatCatatonic wrote:
retsamajnin wrote:
The problem still remains that the little faction can not fight back. Just because you send one or two people on a raid doesn't mean your SH becomes any weaker. The small factions have no chance of retaliating with a counter raid. That is the issue.


Are factions that get cleared entitled to a revenge raid? Or will you occasionally have to just suck it up and say, "This is the Nexus; I will die, a lot"?

If the raids are repeated or completely lopsided it turns into griefing--a whole 'nother matter, but if I have a small faction and someone from a much larger one solos me, I'm just going to have to pick myself up, dust myself off, and say, "well, shit."

Honest question.

--Great


Well no one is entitled to a free raid, that being said I was in a tiny faction that couldn't gain or keep membership. Being raided repeatedly was a contributing factor but that was a minor part in the larger issue.

From my perspective, smaller factions just don't have the fortitude to form small and stay small without setting themselves up as easy pickings.

The one thing I was told repeatedly went counter to everything I wanted to do with my character, I was told "Join a larger faction'.

I didn't like being told that I couldn't play the way I really wanted to so I went feral (actually, I released the character and stayed feral with my other characters)

As for the entitlement aspect, I doubt that any faction will willingly let someone revenge raid them without opposition.

The smaller factions as it stands have a few choices;


    They can take the perseverance route and keep setting up the SH (a mobile stronghold reduces raids but nothing will eliminate them)


    They can find smaller factions and wreck them (continuing the cycle that small factions hate)


    They can try to revenge raid (which rarely works out)


or

    The members can disband/quit and join a larger factions until they hit T3 at which point their own faction wards gets stronger (higher tier characters give the ward a bit more strength).


None of these options will save a small faction since nowhere is actually safe but small factions with high tier characters do have a slight advantage with ward strength.


My opinion on this isn't positive and I imagine folks who play in raiding factions will scream bloody murder if this suggestion was ever implemented but I feel that removing all gains for raiding factions 3 levels lower than your own would help a tiny bit.

I say it would only help a tiny bit because there's no fix for dealing with feral raiders. They don't do it for raid points, they do it for xp or funsies.

Alternatively figuring out a way to make it impossible for a single player to solo raid could be put on the table for consideration but even then I doubt that it would help much.

Players are crafty and will always find a way to break the guidelines or prove that something suggested as a fix would be pointless.

Hopefully in B4 things will change but no one will know for sure until B4 is released.
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Khaze
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

When it comes to survival in this game, here's my take on it.

Take a group of people. Say 4 people. Put them in a random building somewhere in Laurentia. End turn. Wait 12 hours. Do you expect said 4 people to still be alive in the morning? No, no you don't. They've been horribly massacred in the night.

Now, take the same 4 people. Same building. They form a faction and plop down a stronghold. Now, only thing that has changed is that they're factioned and are in a stronghold. Do you expect them to live through the night? Through the next day? Through the week? The month? Maybe. Maybe. No. Definitely no.

Simply being part of a faction and hiding inside a stronghold does not entitle you to live. A stronghold's ward is not impervious, and it should not be impervious. Does dying pause your precious monologues and dialogues? Yes, but if talking is what you're using this murder simulator for, you are playing the wrong game.

This scales up all the way up to the 40-strong factions. At the end of the day, you are just a few dozen guys sitting around inside a building. Sure, now you have a stronger ward and maybe some other defenses, but anyone who thinks they will not be brutally maimed in the night is still playing the wrong game.

Now, what's the difference between a feral passersby murdering 4 people sitting inside a random building, and a 6-man raid team slaughtering 10 people inside a stronghold? The 10 people are now upset because they we're lulled in to peaceful sleep under a false sense of security.

P.S. Sorry for the perhaps snarky tone, but the small fry factions really just need to step up their game instead of submitting to a beating. Form alliances, think of their class composition and merge with other small factions to have a better chance.
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Last edited by Khaze on Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:41 am; edited 1 time in total
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MerlintheTuna
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't played the small-faction game, but not having heard ANYTHING about politics seems like a major blind spot in the discussion so far. If you're a small faction just starting out, find bigger factions to ally with, and make friends with the folks whose area you're moving in on. That cuts the number of possible raiders pretty significantly and cranks up your recap opportunities dramatically.

There may be mechanical issues as well, but any kind of structural fix that doesn't account for this strikes me as not-ideal.


Last edited by MerlintheTuna on Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:20 am; edited 1 time in total
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Kharn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do bear in mind though that levels aren't everything when it comes to raiding. A level 5 faction with a dedicated raiding crew will beat targets that a level 8 faction without much in the way of organization will struggle to get.

(Unupgraded) paper tigers and all, y'know

Also, I've been the underdog before. I have been pushed out of the prime plane. Yeah, having to set in Caldera or the shitty desert micro plane sucks ,but it's the price you pay for being the little guy. Some factions have the privilege of an established name, old members and all. If you're the little guy you either sink or swim, no way around it.

Fuck writing on a cellphone god damn it.
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convider
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

GreatCatatonic wrote:
What is considered the "average faction"? I'm trying to think of who's doing this the most and am having trouble. ... Of course, my question still stands: what size factions are doing this type of raiding?


Some good discussion going on in this thread, I'd just like to provide some proof here:

http://imgur.com/a/3da8Q

Granted, this is now out of date, but it shows quite clearly that the vast majority of factions target lower-level factions and are in turn targeted by higher-level factions. In fact, in that dataset the only factions that didn't fit that pattern were OS (due to being the highest level faction) and RRF (due to being raided by a lower-level faction).

So the short answer to your question is "pretty much everyone."
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Zamiel
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 9:58 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The thing about faction level is that it provides no indication of actual raiding force, there's no accounting for players who just sleep in the SH and don't actively contribute beyond that meatshield.

The problem with trying to really enforce some kind of faction level system is that "serious" factions will start purging those who are not actively raiding and/or providing resources to said raiders to keep their level down, while the factions that don't do so become bigger and tastier targets.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I generally agree with Nook on some things. I'm not really all that troubled by the act of being raided, but when you are in a small faction not only can it be difficult to recap/raid back (depends, of course, on the levels and class of your characters - it's known that 3-4 tier 3 people of the right classes could theoretically raid anyone and win), but also the whole renown system is there working against you on every level: you start out with little renown/safe space and few ways to earn more, and what little renown you start to accumulate is instantly set back by an incoming raid against which you can't really do much. The advice here would seem to be suck it up, or level up and try again later when you're higher level, which I guess I am okay with considering the current state of affairs in NC.

I actually see it making a lot of sense for a high-levelled faction to actually *lose* renown from raiding little factions - you don't become famous, but infamous for reaping the easy targets, right? Yeah, faction level is not an accurate indicator of raiding strength, so the idea wouldn't really work as-is.

Perhaps there could be two scores: on the one hand, you have renown as usual, which you use to buy upgrades and yadayada; on the other, a "prestige" score that goes up the more you raid factions that raid often, and goes down if you raid factions that raid little, or don't raid much yourself. I.E., if you raid a faction with high prestige, your prestige goes up, and you earn more renown; if you raid someone with low prestige, your prestige goes down and you earn less renown. It should probably be scaled a bit with faction level, as eventually it would make smallish but efficient factions like OR, Knights or DS not get much from raids against big but passive factions like Pirates. Or maybe that's a good thing, I wouldn't know. Also, it would be a more accurate e-peen comparison table than faction level or # of flags captured.
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 10:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this has been discussed in some capacity before, but to connect some of Zamiel & Yukari's thoughts, this is a nice highlight of how weird faction level & renown are as systems. Faction level isn't actually a measure of your faction's accomplishments, it's a composite of individual strengths. Renown is sort of a measure of your faction's accomplishments, but you also want to burn through it as quickly as possible (so that you can buy upgrades before you get raided and lose renown). And since it's cumulative, long-time factions don't really care, while new factions are scrapping for each little point to upgrade their safe from 10 weight to 20. Both of these concepts would benefit from getting reworked on in Breath 4, but I can't imagine any major changes would be practical for 3.5.
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