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Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles.

 
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Nook
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 11:23 am    Post subject: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

From what I understand, AP regen on these tiles was removed to prevent a exploit and that the main issue of that exploit has been resolved. I would like to open a dialog about AP regeneration being restored on the listed tiles.

This included;

River
Sea
Lava
Searing River
Picard River
Alcyonian Sea
Ceyxian Sea
Amelie's Mere
Void

The original decision to remove AP regen for these tiles may not apply or is managed through other patches now.

So I would like to ask if this is something that could be looked at again to restore the AP regeneration to the above listed tiles.

Things I'd like to talk about here;
(If you know of links discussing these topics, please post)

Why removing the AP regen was the solution at the time.
What other options for the solution was.
Does the original exploit still exist.
Benefits of restoration.
Detriments of restoration.
Limitations of Bobcode and what is possible.
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Yukari
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 12:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree mostly with everything except removing it from void tiles, and even then, there are only 2 void tiles in the whole Nexus at present.

"Does the original exploit still exist."
Not really. It used to involve (mostly) void walkers hiding out in water/void tiles while invisible, where the classes that could reach them and kill them was greatly reduced. Now, everyone can wade into water, regardless of skill, so it's not such a big deal any more.

+Permanent invisibility: removed for the most part.
+Water accessibility: greatly increased.

"Benefits of restoration."
It will probably encourage more people to take the Swimming skill ( :D ). The sea will stop being just a huge white-noise place, and will be able to be used as a half-decent hiding spot. You can't actually *Hide*, but it's vast and out of the way enough that chances are good you'll make it through the night. Which will, of course, be counter-balanced by more people becoming aware of hiders doing this.

Also, folks with Swimming that accidentally AP on water tiles won't have to ask for a smite or wait for someone to find them to move again, which is certainly a plus.

"Detriments of restoration."
People will actually begin using sea tiles as hiding spots. Whether this is good or bad is left to interpretation and statistics, I guess? Including for the most part the big mass of water in Laurentia and the lakes in Elysium and Stygia.

In regards of a Void Walkers' invisibility, whether they go invis in the middle of the sea or they do so in a random building in a city, I don't think it will matter in the least - the only ones that can find them, see them, and kill them are bat-animus Revenants, who can fly over water without the need to swim. Divine Heralds, that can do so a bit less efficiently, also get Feet of the Wind.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:07 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Nook wrote:
Why removing the AP regen was the solution at the time.

Because we didn't want people regenerating AP on these out-of-the-way tiles, and removing the ability to do so seemed like the simple, straightforward solution.
Nook wrote:
What other options for the solution was.

uhhhhhhhhhhh murder them for it?
Nook wrote:
Does the original exploit still exist.

No because we removed the ability to regenerate AP on these tiles.
Nook wrote:
Benefits of restoration.
Detriments of restoration.

Neither of these makes any sense to me.



To me, this suggestion comes across like this: "I understand that regenerating AP on water/void tiles was an exploit, and since removing the ability to regenerate AP on these tiles successfully removed that exploit, I'd like to discuss removing the fix to that exploit because that fix solved the exploit."


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Nook
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 1:34 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:
Nook wrote:
Why removing the AP regen was the solution at the time.

Because we didn't want people regenerating AP on these out-of-the-way tiles, and removing the ability to do so seemed like the simple, straightforward solution.


Why didn't you want people regenerating AP (HP?) on out-of-the-way tiles?


Benefits of restoration;

If AP could be regenerated on liquid tiles, what benefits could players gain from that?
What could players do if they could regenerate AP on liquid tiles.
What avenues of deeper game play could be opened up through this?
'Stuck' with no AP in water issue fix.

Detriments of restoration;

Are there any reasons to keep the tiles AP-less?
Would this give any special benefits to one class over another?



Teksura wrote:
To me, this suggestion comes across like this: "I understand that regenerating AP on water/void tiles was an exploit, and since removing the ability to regenerate AP on these tiles successfully removed that exploit, I'd like to discuss removing the fix to that exploit because that fix solved the exploit."


I understood that the exploit was players being near impossible to find while hiding over void tiles and the ability to stage massive raids from the almost impenetrable safety of the void (death if you 'fall') tile.


Now that the VW invisibility has been downgraded and the volume of instakill if you fall tiles has been reduced I'm wondering if having a no AP regeneration tile can be re-examined for liquid tiles.

If my homework is right, asking for this is an all or nothing type thing.

-Either we can regen on all water-esqe tiles or none of them.

So I'm wondering if we can look at the all options.

-So far I've read a few people say 'I agree with this, but not with void." but there's only two void tiles and both are centralized with land all around it.

-There's been mention of this suggestion making the swim skill valuable again.

-This would make it so no one needs a player or admin to 'kill/smite' them if they AP out on a liquid tile.

-Opens up more travel routes without having to add portals or create new planes.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 2:30 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Nook wrote:
Why didn't you want people regenerating AP (HP?) on out-of-the-way tiles?

Let me flip this around on you:

Why do you think it's necessary or healthy for the game to spread targets out even thinner?

Nook wrote:
-This would make it so no one needs a player or admin to 'kill/smite' them if they AP out on a liquid tile.


Re-opening an exploit is a terrible fix for a bug. Better to simply fix the bug and make it properly cause death.
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Kylinn
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 4:39 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:
Re-opening an exploit is a terrible fix for a bug. Better to simply fix the bug and make it properly cause death.

Like this?
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Nook
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:
Nook wrote:
Why didn't you want people regenerating AP (HP?) on out-of-the-way tiles?

Let me flip this around on you:

Why do you think it's necessary or healthy for the game to spread targets out even thinner?



I believe it's necessary because;

- It prevents getting stuck in water-ish tiles.

-The original exploit of invisible VWs is now changed with the alteration of perma-invis and you can't hide in or on water anyways.

-Addressing the spread targets out even thinner, that insinuates that despite every choice presented to use that no player is anything more that something to attack or be attacked by.

If people want to invest in relative safety, they have to join a large faction or become expert hiders. Opening up water tiles for AP regen would also allow feral and new players with 'Swim' to hide in plain sight with a modicum of relative safety by heading out to sea. (Nowhere is actually safe and we all know it)



I believe that this is healthy for the game because;

- It allows people more freedom with their characters. (Merfolk and Lava Monsters could now live and hunt in water/lava).

- Players no longer get stuck if they AP out over a liquid tile.

- It allows for greater RP scenarios. (Someone is happily using a river as transport and runs into pirates also opening up AP regen on water tiles means that someone could go deep sea diving!)

- It gives access to more spaces to play on. Limiting AP regenerating space isn't forcing people to fight more, it's causing us to come in contact with each other more often. That's not something everyone wants to do all the time and because you can't hide on a liquid tile other players still have a chance to find you.

A player would still need the swim skill to prevent drowning, they would still take fire damage in lava and could still fall to their death in the two void tiles.

*EDIT*

I'm thinking that if you were to AP out (0 AP) on a liquid tile you should still die. (Unless you have something that let's you fly/swim at 0 AP and if so, regen AP like normal)


Last edited by Nook on Sun Jan 03, 2016 6:00 pm; edited 2 times in total
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saulres
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 03, 2016 5:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I thought the water issue was done because people with swimming and other travel skills could get out on the water but people without those couldn't. With everyone able to enter water now that no longer applies.

Void tiles, on the other hand, are not accessible by everyone, so there AP shouldn't regen, VWs be damend (and this comes from someone who's most played character is a VW).

If the wide expanse of water to the west is the issue, why not raise the island that I believe was said to have been intended, or toss in a couple of oil rigs?
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Xirvi
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 8:58 am    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

While I'm not about to suggest Clash, of all games, should be developed with realism in mind, being able to regenerate AP on water just doesn't make sense. You regenerate AP because you're resting. It might be tranquil floating out on that lake, but if you fall asleep while you're afloat, you're probably dead. At sea it makes even less sense. The game does not need more tiles making targets even rarer - it needs more players.

Also, speaking as the designer of the Laurentia plane, this suggestion undermines the amount of time and effort I spent balancing land/sea tiles in Laurentia to create the most "balanced" overworld map - a map that is neither too small nor too large. By adding water tiles as possible hiding spots, you are adding over six hundred additional tiles for people to have to search (approximately 40% of the current map, or about 625 out of 1600 tiles, is water.) Laurentia has the amount of land it does for a very specific reason.

I have a better suggestion, since I know one of your main arguments is preventing people from getting stuck: spending time on water/void tiles/etc. for more than two ticks without moving should kill you in the same way that flying over water/void tiles/etc. without moving does. After one tick passes you move to whatever the swimming equivalent of the "gliding" status effect is. If you're still under that effect when the next tick happens, you die. Problem solved.
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Nook
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PostPosted: Mon Jan 04, 2016 11:21 pm    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Xirvi wrote:
I have a better suggestion, since I know one of your main arguments is preventing people from getting stuck: spending time on water/void tiles/etc. for more than two ticks without moving should kill you in the same way that flying over water/void tiles/etc. without moving does. After one tick passes you move to whatever the swimming equivalent of the "gliding" status effect is. If you're still under that effect when the next tick happens, you die. Problem solved.


Your solution for a simple fix I suggested is to gut what we have with the swim skill and impose a 2 tick or you're dead penalty.

That's a huge no.

I'm following the 'how to make a suggestion' ideals. I'm bringing it up in here to get worked over by everyone before posting it to either Teksuras or Shadoks suggestion pages but a little bend here and there wouldn't kill you.

The way these things usually work are;

I offer a suggestion, public give ideas and criticism (some of those ideas get tossed right out) and the suggestion gets altered and proposed again.

That idea gets mulled over with people having lots of time for input and the suggestion gets edited again and posted to a dev thread for consideration.

Saying this undermines all the work you put into it isn't the intention. I'm offering a suggestion that could address multiple things. Opening up new areas for events, creating new travel paths, making for new hiding spots.

That's why there's a suggestion thread and guidelines for suggestions in the first place.

You saying it adds 'x' many tiles to search doesn't really come into play either. Most classes have movement abilities that could be utilized better with more tiles to move through and god knows swim need a use.

The +600 tiles I'm asking to be altered aren't a landmass with buildings and I'm not asking for new things to be added so the workload of the suggestion (might be?) minimal.

There's no 'searching' involved considering that hiding on water based tiles can't be done.

VW invisibility has already been changed. There's also water breathing potions, fly potions, fire proof potions and fire proof skills to assist those hunting VWs anyways.

Ferals and new players with swim could use some safer areas, opening AP regen could provide them. (no where is really safe)


The only real argument points I've heard against this is the fear of making the map too large and it being difficult to find victims to kill.

I don't want to be a plaything for anyone. If you happen to find me despite everything I do to keep myself away from you then by all means do what you want.

If I can find ways to avoid other players by hiding in a distant location, using a skill or spell or burying myself in the deepest corner of the sewer I will take it. Everyone plays the game for their own reasons, opening up AP regen on liquid tiles allows more freedom in how we play.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:26 am    Post subject: Re: Reversal of the zero AP regen on 'liquid' tiles. Reply with quote

Nook wrote:
Teksura wrote:
Nook wrote:
Why didn't you want people regenerating AP (HP?) on out-of-the-way tiles?

Let me flip this around on you:

Why do you think it's necessary or healthy for the game to spread targets out even thinner?



I believe it's necessary because;

- It prevents getting stuck in water-ish tiles.

-The original exploit of invisible VWs is now changed with the alteration of perma-invis and you can't hide in or on water anyways.

-Addressing the spread targets out even thinner, that insinuates that despite every choice presented to use that no player is anything more that something to attack or be attacked by.


Exactly 0 of these cover the question posed. By your argument, you mean to tell me that you think it is healthy for the game to have a hunting grounds less populated because... You think removing a solid and proven fix to an exploit is a better option than fixing a bug? You're actually arguing that we should re-introduce an exploit based entirely on the idea that the exploit no longer exists due to the very change you propose we remove.



I just... Look, imagine this is what is going on here:


Doctor: Your knee is seriously damaged. You may never walk again unless we surgically replace it.
Patient: Ok.
Doctor: We've done it, and you've made a full recovery!
Patient: Great! That means you can put my old knee back in and I'll be fine, right?
Doctor: No. Your old knee wasn't working. It was broken beyond hope.
Patient: But it's fine now!
Doctor: Because we replaced it.
Patient: Exactly! So I don't need the replacement anymore because it's fine now!


For goodness sake. We're not re-introducing that exploit just because it was successfully closed off. Quite the opposite, that's all the more reason to KEEP it closed off. We'd rather fix a bug than re-introduce an exploit you seem to really really want to be able to take advantage of. That's now how we design things.
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Shadok
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PostPosted: Tue Jan 05, 2016 12:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nook, you're missing the obvious which is being said to you here.

Your suggestion, in its current form, will not benefit the game population in any manner. In fact it will re-open an exploit which previously was used by a large number of players to ensure their characters were extremely difficult to find and kill. Only the most dedicated of hunters could find them and at extremely high AP costs. Nobody would "accidentally" stumble on them and we had cases of people claiming to have survived outside of their stronghold for several months at a time (in a murder simulator).

This exploit was closed with the inability to regenerate AP on these tiles, thereby driving those previously immune to death onto tiles where they could be hunted by a larger population, increasing player interaction.

Your proposal will not even have an hour before someone goes back to this same old exploit and history repeats itself. The population will deplete as players start making use of, as Xirvi said, over 600 more locations to hide. In effect your proposal is "please kill what remains of Nexus PVP".

This proposal in its current form will not happen. It's as simple as that.

I'm seconding Tek's earlier motion to close this thread and am doing so. If you're able to come up with a way for people to stand over void/water tiles and regenerate without making them new and viable places to hide, feel free to post your new idea. If your idea isn't shot down I'll commend you personally for managing to make an idea to make a location both viable and totally unviable in defiance of all things. Arrow
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