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Wyrm Master Imp Suggestion
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomppa wrote:
RaelCleap, frankly, your arguments make no sense.
Essentially, what you are saying is:
1. Pet's give less XP (per target)(this is true, but they also give more xp per AP spent)
2. You need a large horde (to take down more targets to make up for the smaller xp per target)
3. Large horde forces you to sit in a SH for several days to gather it up and rejuvenate them
4. Horde size does not matter because they are just as easily swiped away by a prepared raid team.

The problem here seems to be that for some reason, you feel like you need a large horde.
If you were happy to have a few pets, instead of wanting 5 or 10 or 20, you could hunt more often, and thus get more xp, without being pinned to the SH as you say. A raid would also set you back less.
You've set an arbitrary high number of pets as a requirement, while you'd likely perform a lot better with a smaller amount.

Why build a large horde if it means that you can hunt only once in a few days? Why build a large horde if it's swiped away as easily as a smaller one, by raiders? I mean, large horde is obviously cool, but it doesn't sound very effective in... anything.

The Strength of a PM is the fact that they can take a target down, when they find one, with very little AP investment. This frees up more AP to be spent on the actual hunting - that is, searching for a target.

I do agree that the Imp seems a lot weaker than several of the other pets - It's main goal seems to be the ability to sniff out invisible targets - But I just can't see how -more- imps would make it somehow better.
Exploding on death? That sounds like an awesome upgrade.
Stealing more MP? Would make it more interesting.
Have the Imp gain one MP for itself as well when it steals? That would make it awesome, and longer-lived.
More HP so that it could take more blows for it's master? That could be curious too.
It could maybe do with a damage boost, because against any Kinship characters, it will deal at max 2 dmg, and for some reason, most targets my hunters run into, seem to be adamant kinships, so that kinda sucks. Then again, if you run into an Adamant Kinship, maybe the Imp isn't the best choice to summon.


The MP steal of imp is negligible even with a 4 imp horde.

I do DH, all the time, DH in the morning, evening and night, DH all the time. Every single prey I come across.

The main argument is Nether Hound and here is why.

20MP to summon H'Hound, a further 20 MP to summon the main hunting pet. That's Nether hound.

Now i could summon 2 and DH and make one of them a nether. But man, that' Hits X = AP to get successful DH hits, 2 MP per attempt.

to the 15 MP a lichs main hunting pet costs, 10 MP to summon + 5 if using servitor of the grave. They also have better base damage.

(this is not even including the raise dead skill, even without this skill the Ghoul out performs and gives a pick up and play element)

You could ague Imp being the main swarm horde. But at such high costs in CP and the high MP cost for what you get, it really isn't much of a hunting pet Requires more frequent rejuv's through lower stats and half the damage of ghoul.


So my questions and justifications.

Why summon Nether hound or bother with the skill? Wrack worm fills its place in the Hunter category, doesn't decay has better damage and costs 10 MP less to summon for a lot less Ap (Dark hearting ect). CP wise 30CP less than netherhound. Yes you only get one wrack worm, but on any hunt you only get one nether hound. To what advantage? None, you would do better to horrid tentacle.

So why get Hell hound? Don't! as in raid defense it really isn't worth anything v Iunvun' potions. Redundant as long as such potions exist. So hunting...

Tentacle and Wrackworm are cheaper and more effective. However Tentacle is left behind. With the choke to Leyline (as it should be in next patch) This hunt becomes less far a field through MP restrictions.

So H'hound and nether hound, same applies but restricts even more the field of the hunt and pet maintenance. It practically pins you to the SH, for what gain, a redundant defense. Especially with Nether Hounds Damage types.

So what are Hell hounds for? What are Nether hounds for? They are to expensive in MP for what they are, they don't fill a role. Hunter pet? Redundant pet wall? What is its role?

Add imp to your horde, it just isn't worth its damage, skill, CP, MP cost. It performs poorly. Its only purpose is to troll a raider for 4-6 hits at best. Or spot invis / hidden targets. The wrack worm does that anyway for hidden targets and I have witnessed it on mine first hand.

Combine the reduced xp (I agree in principle if the mp costs of pets where balanced in line with Lich pets costs). But man, such a slow grind with very little reward for the micromanagement.

At least Lich is a fun hunter with a lot of useful pets (arguably skeleton needs some love and a reduction of 5 mp on wight would widen the hunt range).

That's the point Look at Imp, H' hound and Nether hound, it draws a conclusion, why bother with them.

The main reason to this issue. Invun' potions.

So I'm fine to gettin' smooshed v a raid while these potions exist, but as long as MP is reduced so pm's can hunt, and hunt further afield.

Achieved through....

Yup tweaks in MP to the pets.

In gremlins case, Combine Interposed thrall and Impish Mischief together for 60 CP and when taken give the Imp a 6 damage impact type attack. then its worth 12 to 15 MP and the CP investment.

Try Nether lowering rejuv costs of H'hound. That's the quick fix, while still retaining its buffs. so example The H'hound (20mp) becomes say 10MP to rejuv' after summoning and with nether hound skill; retaining the change from the H' hound to the nether hound. That is the same MP cost as wrack worm.

Leylines / DH ect, you can work out the hound pack strait off the re-spawn.

Lower MP costs also encourage mixed an varied hordes. I would rather have one of each pet in my horde and have a smaller horde with better effect , than spamming one cookie cutter pet. Even if this is capped to how many of each pet you can have.

But Right now H'hound and Nether hounds are redundant for raid defense and for hunting wrack worm and horrid tentacles out perform.

I like a variety of tactics, (like lich) but the Wyrm Master falls short because of MP costs and pet CP / MP costs. This as I have said is for one reason, Invulnerability potions.

My reasoning and logic... and offered solutions above. Are they Unreasonable conclusions?

because right now...

The Dogma of the Wyrm Master is to spend time pinned in the stronghold repeating a slow process that is redundant in raid defense, for to high a price in MP. That restricts frequency of hunts and xp gain to painfully slow with less effective results compared to other Pet Masters over all.

Definition of insanity when I look at it.

And that's why I let my second Wyrm Master go today. A discussion that is not worth wasting my time on now.

Quote:
You have successfully released The Nightmares of Patient Zero from your control. You must wait another 24 hours before releasing another character.


Tholaghru would be displeased if it cared.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Exploding imps would be epic.

Tomppa wrote:
Then again, if you run into an Adamant Kinship, maybe the Imp isn't the best choice to summon.


Pre-determined pets from SH camping hhorde means the WM isn't an on the fly summoner. the main argument of redundant pet wall, so let them hunt sooner than they currently do now because of high MP costs.

Like a lich, strait from re-spawn it can hunt effectively for less MP consumption and more reward. None of its pets are redundant and Skeleton is still good even though lackluster in variety of skill.
_________________
“I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver


Last edited by RaelCleap on Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:02 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Lychwood
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

For one, Lich summons are cheaper because they require a corpse. A WM can summon anywhere, any time. Of course, servitor of the grave makes up for that difference.

Now, when I had a WM I didn't use it as a sit-around-and-be-a-wall Pet Master. As pointed out, they're singularly unsuited for the task. A WM isn't designed to have a large horde around the clock. They are lacking a little something, but their skills are designed with a theme in mind.

It's all about mobile offense. When I wasn't raiding, I kept only five pets with me around the clock. Three hounds, two imps. Imps were meatshields on passive so that in case I fell into a nasty trap, I was covered. Hounds because hounds are great. Hellhounds are good because they're immune to fire. That's right, that makes them immune to the IB's aura and therefore a useful last resort tool for cracking them. Nethers are good because they're pretty comparable to a wrackwyrm, and you're not limited to just one of them. Save the CP, don't get wrackwyrm, and get nether hounds. Sure, you're not going to spend all of the MP to nether them up front, but you *are* going to rejuvenate them eventually, at which point they will become nether. Those are your standing troops. A small group of punchy pets. Not a huge upkeep compared to a giant horde, lets you travel around with your fabulous Wicked Leap skill, which is the only petmaster travel skill that confers its AP savings onto your pet horde. Since you're literally only traveling half the normal number of spaces, your pets are traveling for 1/2 AP as well. Then, you can synergize that with a potion of flying to get 1/4 travel costs on yourself. You're like a jet plane petmaster flying anywhere you want to.

Then, you have Dark Heart which makes up for its lack of utility while sitting around the homestead on the raid front. A Stronghold full of targets contains all of the juicy MP you need to spam an army of pets. Not only that, but you can cripple active MP-using defenders by stealing all of their mana fromt them.

My swarm pet was the tentacle, for mostly sentimental and budget saving reasons. They really could use a punch up in terms of stats. They are really neat, however, in that they stick around when you leave which means you can set traps and nasty surprises for unwary passers by. You can string a network of them around your home area's resource locations to stand guard and take potshots at trespassers. They can play sentry and let you know if anyone comes to the doorstep.

Wyrm Masters have really interesting utility, they could just use a little sprucing up to make them on par with other pet masters. I think they're the most interesting from a roleplay standpoint, as they give you a lot more freedom to move around, and don't really burden you with the massive hordebeast requiring constant feedings.
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Kiralio
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

How would you feel about making Dark Heart auto-hit, possibly in conjunction with a slight but not perfectly compensatory drop in stolen mana? (Make it +8 net instead of +9, maybe.)
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 5:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Lychwood

I agree that small mob is preferable, but imp Overpriced for the spammable pet, its low damage yields no xp v any tier really. Its utility isn't woth its CP or MP costs.

Tentacle is nice yes and there is a reason it is the worm masters most chosen pet. It also yields Xp v T2's.

Hell hound, why summon one?

Wrack worm fills its roll and doesn't decay. So further roaming hunting and its damage yields xp.

The nether hound costs more MP than the wrackworm, redundant for SH defence. The lower tiers of the hound yield no xp v t2's or below. Arguably v t3 in some cases. They take longer and cost more MP than other PM's equivilant.

So nether and 1 x hell hound to enter a respawn hunt, or 1 x wrackworm and 2 x tentacle each target you find.

Wrackworm every time with Horrid tentacles.

I would have liked to add imp to that roster, but like HH and nether hound they offer little benefit and have high MP costs and high CP costs. For ability that Wrack worm and Tentacle do better for less.

Now, I could not use those skills, but that's a whopping 300cp of redundancy v raid (potions) and overly expensive for hunts MP wise while lacking variety or yield more xp than that of a single wrackworm and, this comes at a cost of 30 cp more than the wrackworm. 90 More CP with more MP cost if you choose Nether to hunt, which with potions is the most redundant in defense of the sh. At 10 MP more in cost than a wrackworm, you tell me...

Is it worth it?

Imp falls into the same flaws. Interpose thrall giving damage soak that just delays the inevitable or the ability to spot invis targets.

Wrackworm finds hidden targets, I can live without Imps Invis' spotting considering the costs to get it. Plus as a pet it yields no xp most fights, defense neutralized v a raid.. When Attacking Imp is terrible and anyone it can kill yields no xp 99.9% of the time.

Tell me, does that sound worth it to you? For one 15 mp summon in a horde (which is all the imps good for) is it worth its CP / mp costs.

Naaaa...

So I retired my WM's. The 300 cp, potions and high MP making these two pets redundant is not something I am willing to play.

Let alone invest the CP / MP, resources or time in for the microscopic chance of an un-prepped raid. Just so the Tank feels special, as doing thus yields no xp nor any type of satisfying reward or benefit in game play or tactic.

Kiralio wrote:
How would you feel about making Dark Heart auto-hit, possibly in conjunction with a slight but not perfectly compensatory drop in stolen mana? (Make it +8 net instead of +9, maybe.)


It would not change H'hound, nether Hound and imps redundancies and High mp / CP costs. All for the above reasons.

Nice idea, but does nothing to fix the pets flaws.

I know it will hopefully be fixed B4. But B3.5, as rp flavorish the Wyrm Master is best. As a functioning character class, Clunky, slow and un-fun to play. Through a lot of redundancy in IMP and Hounds.
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“I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver


Last edited by RaelCleap on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:45 pm; edited 6 times in total
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Kiralio
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Without claiming it would "fix" that problem since that's a hard target to define, objectively speaking it would make it less of an issue. If the AP you spend to recover mana is lower, the effective cost per pet is less.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiralio wrote:
Without claiming it would "fix" that problem since that's a hard target to define, objectively speaking it would make it less of an issue. If the AP you spend to recover mana is lower, the effective cost per pet is less.


You are just swapping High Mp cost for High AP cost instead In Hell hound and nether hounds cost.

Tentacle / Wrackworm combo still out performs it. Even with your suggestion, in fact it makes this combo even greater still than hounds.

Further reinforcing hounds (both types) redundancy in both Defense and hunting. As well as MP / CP costs being to high for what they are.

Imp, well Tentacle over imp every Time for CP cost and cost in MP as tentacle yields xp v more tiers of targets and has better tactical capability than imp.

This 300 CP redundancy and slow, tedious play style is why I dropped my Worm masters (x2) like hot lead recently. (Lich is the king of PM's, fun and useful and should be a template for other PM's for this reason, skelleton is their only undesirable skill, and for mp cost it's still bloody good. Wight is 5 MP to expensive considering all pets redundancy defending v potions + raid).

This change to DH you suggest would also Overpower corrupter for gem charging and MP theft grieving / poisoning ; and DO for curssing, spell attacks, debuffs or multiple curses / poisons during raids.
_________________
“I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver


Last edited by RaelCleap on Sat Nov 28, 2015 8:19 pm; edited 3 times in total
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:21 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Example of a basic Lich team of 7 pets v a tank. 16xp total.

Quote:
- Zinfab attacked you with a Glacierblast triggered spell and missed! (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:19).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Glacierblast triggered spell and hit for 11 points of cold damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:21).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Glacierblast triggered spell and hit for 11 points of cold damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- (2 times) Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:23).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Glacierblast triggered spell and hit for 11 points of cold damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:25).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:25).
- Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:25).
- Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:25).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:26).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:26).
- (2 times) Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:26).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Glacierblast triggered spell and hit for 11 points of cold damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- (2 times) Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:27).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Battering Ram spell and missed! (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and hit for 7 points of slashing damage. You gain 3 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- (2 times) Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:29).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Bilious Purge triggered spell and hit for 12 points of acid damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:39).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Bilious Purge triggered spell and hit for 12 points of acid damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:40).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and hit for 7 points of slashing damage. You gain 3 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:41).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Bilious Purge triggered spell and missed! (2015-11-28 22:39:42).
- Your pet Angry Psychopath, a Fossil Monstrosity, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:42).
- (2 times) Your pet Straitjacketed Lunatic, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:42).
- Your pet Deranged Nurse, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:42).
- Your pet Deranged Matron, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:43).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and hit for 2 points of slashing damage. You gain 1 experience points! His armor soaked 8 points of damage. (2015-11-28 22:39:43).
- Your pet Mental Patient, a Ghoul, attacked Zinfab and missed. (2015-11-28 22:39:43).
- Zinfab attacked you with a Bilious Purge triggered spell and hit for 12 points of acid damage. This was enough to kill you! (2015-11-28 22:39:49).
- Thalanor has earned the High Roller badge! (2015-11-28 23:08:49).


As a WM you would be lucky to get equal, in most cases less xp v the same type of tank, or V any class for that matter. Again, yet another of the curses of the WM.

The WM pets that equal the damage of the Lich pets cost too much in CP / MP to come even close. Or are compleatly Nutralised through potion use because of their damage types (nether hound and IMP). Not to mention your horde is a lot smaller for a greater cost in ap /mp.

Am I wrong?
_________________
“I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 6:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
- 777, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and missed! (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:34:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked Mr Scavvy and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:12).
- Mr Scavvy said, "FIGHT LADS!" (2015-12-18 03:35:15).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:21).
- 777, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:21).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and missed! (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Mr Scavvy summoned a Ghoul. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked Mr Scavvy and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:22).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- 777, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked Mr Scavvy and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:32).
- Mr Scavvy summoned a Ghoul. (2015-12-18 03:35:38).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and missed! (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Howling Agony Hunter, a(n) Hellhound has despawned. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked Howling Agony Hunter, killing them! (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. This was enough to kill your pet! (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked Mr Scavvy and hit for 9 points of fire damage. You gain 4 experience points! (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:42).
- 777, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and missed! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Howling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Stalking Agony Hunter, a(n) Hellhound has despawned. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked Stalking Agony Hunter, killing them! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. This was enough to kill your pet! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, belonging to The Nightmares of Patient Zero, attacked One of the lads, killing them! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. This was enough to kill them! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Stalking Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Growling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked One of the lads and hit for 9 points of fire damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Your pet Growling Howling Agony Hunter, an Hellhound, attacked Mr Scavvy and hit for 9 points of fire damage. You gain 4 experience points! (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:35:52).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Growling Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- 777, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- Stalking Agony Hunter, a(n) Hellhound has despawned. (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked Stalking Agony Hunter, killing them! (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Stalking Agony Hunter and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. This was enough to kill your pet! (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- You feel Wailing Nightmare, a Gibbering Flesh spring from your body, fueled by your hatred. (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked you and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. This was enough to kill you! Your corpse rises as a ghoul in the service of Mr Scavvy! (2015-12-18 03:36:02).
- Your pet Wailing Nightmare, a Gibbering Flesh, attacked One of the lads and hit for 0 points of death damage. His armor soaked 9 points of damage. (2015-12-18 03:36:12).
- Your pet Wailing Nightmare, a Gibbering Flesh, attacked One of the lads and missed. (2015-12-18 03:36:22).
- The Nightmares of Patient Zero, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Wailing Nightmare and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:36:22).
- (2 times) One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Wailing Nightmare and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. (2015-12-18 03:36:32).
- Wailing Nightmare, a(n) Gibbering Flesh has despawned. (2015-12-18 03:36:32).
- One of the lads, a Ghoul, belonging to Mr Scavvy, attacked your pet, Wailing Nightmare and hit for 10 points of slashing damage. This was enough to kill your pet! (2015-12-18 03:36:32).



Just to point out a Lich with smaller cheaper in MP pick up and play horde v my Hell Hound horde gained from half my ap, all my MP and a fully drained leyline.

That extra 10mp per summon truly pays off for the Wyme Masters...

That two day old horde of mine well it gained me in 30 ish hours a sum total of 36 xp. Evil or Very Mad
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Tomppa
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 9:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't understand.
Are you complaining that you got 36 free xp while being offline, compared to the fact any other (non-pm) class would have just died without gaining -any xp at all-?

My lich just got 10 xp for pet attacks while getting killed in her sleep. I thought that was a nice bonus, considering that raising the 2 zombies only took 2 ap, the same amount that reading 2 books would have taken (and incidentally, the same xp reward matched that too).

Edit: Yeah, they only took 20 MP to summon, but considering that I don't need MP while reading, I could have just as well had 2 hell hounds (had she been a WM and not a lich). Those would have likely also given more xp, considering the 20% better to-hit-chance.
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RaelCleap
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Posts: 1074

PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 1:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomppa wrote:
I don't understand.
Are you complaining that you got 36 free xp while being offline, compared to the fact any other (non-pm) class would have just died without gaining -any xp at all-?

My lich just got 10 xp for pet attacks while getting killed in her sleep. I thought that was a nice bonus, considering that raising the 2 zombies only took 2 ap, the same amount that reading 2 books would have taken (and incidentally, the same xp reward matched that too).

Edit: Yeah, they only took 20 MP to summon, but considering that I don't need MP while reading, I could have just as well had 2 hell hounds (had she been a WM and not a lich). Those would have likely also given more xp, considering the 20% better to-hit-chance.


Power to mp cost comparison.

Xp is kinder irrelevant in after thought.

Points being are.

1. We both had equal horde size
2. The Lich's horde cost half the amount in mp
3. The hell hounds lost to the ghouls.

Power to Mp cost. Hell hounds are too expensive in MP for what they are.
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Tomppa
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 18, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaelCleap wrote:

Power to mp cost comparison.

Xp is kinder irrelevant in after thought.

Points being are.

1. We both had equal horde size
2. The Lich's horde cost half the amount in mp
3. The hell hounds lost to the ghouls.

Power to Mp cost. Hell hounds are too expensive in MP for what they are.

Power to MP cost. Right. Yes, Ghoul is, if you're staring at "power to MP cost", better. However, that tells absolutely nothing about balance, or need for buff/nerf for the other.

1. You can't simply up and compare two pets, neglecting to take into account everything else the classes have in difference, like: Travel skills, handicapped by needing a corpse to summon, innate attacks, and maximum potential. Yes, you can, at best, get 2 ghouls for the price of 1 Hound +1 AP. Your ghouls aren't getting any better, though, while the hellhound has potential to be a MotP Netherhound.
2. You can't cherrypick a situation that best supports your point, and claim it represents the whole truth.
3. Anecdotes are not evidence.

In this example, you've given the lich free corpses - best case scenario for him. If we take away those, and assume he has to servitor them, it's suddenly 15 mp and 2 ap per ghoul. Thus, a fairer comparison would be, say, 4 ghouls for 60 mp (and 8 AP) vs 3 nether hounds (60 mp and 3 AP) instead of saying "half the cost" or "double the horde". Or, if I wanted to cherry pick, I could count the numbers using 1 hellhound that is then rejuvinated to nether hound, and then rejuvinated again. Point is: The truth is somewhere in between.

Let's take a look at the numbers, though?
Code:
            Ghoul   Hellhound (MotP)
Mp           40           35
Hp           60           85
Att %        60,00%       70,00%
Def %         0,00%        5,00%
dmg          10            9
dmg total   240          220,5
dmg w/def   220          220,5
max kills     2,59         3,67
dmg/tick      5,5          6,3
kills in #   15,45         9,52


Just staring at the numbers over there: if you both had -equal- horde size (say, 4vs4), odds say that you should have won, because 1 hound beats 1 ghoul by the numbers - the hound kills the ghoul almost 6 pet ticks before the ghoul can kill the hound. Maybe you were unlucky, or maybe the active pet master has an upperhand, because retargeting pets smartly has a huge effect (ganging up on one instead of going 1vs1) on efficiency.

I'm not saying that the Hellhounds are better overall (though in purely 1vs1 comparison, they are) - I'm merely saying that your point does not represent the whole truth, and is a pretty one-sided view.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 8:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Its mp cost to Horde for hunting. I would be happier with a 10mp hound with ghouls power in Damage if it ment the 10 mp cost. So the worm masters main hunting pet is pick up and play.

My point, the Horde of just Hell Hounds takes twice the cost in MP, compaired to lichs main hunting pet. most encounters with a Lich my Horde will be harlf the size and everyonee knows Numbers a strong horde makes.

When comparing the two, it is two ghouls per one hell hound. By that ratio for MP cost the hound is poor in comparrison as a hunting pet. That is if we ignore ghouls dead raising effects as well.

Gremlin most agree, just down right sucks for MP / CP investment.
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Aidan
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I haven't read your posts in detail, Rael and Tomppa, so apologies in advance, but I want to add something you both seem to be overlooking:

Ghouls regenerate health equal to the amount of damage done to a target. Thus, in pet vs pet combat, ghouls are practically unbeatable.
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Saint_Jimmy
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 9:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tomppa wrote:


In this example, you've given the lich free corpses - best case scenario for him. If we take away those, and assume he has to servitor them, it's suddenly 15 mp and 2 ap per ghoul. Thus, a fairer comparison would be, say, 4 ghouls for 60 mp (and 8 AP) vs 3 nether hounds (60 mp and 3 AP) instead of saying "half the cost" or "double the horde". Or, if I wanted to cherry pick, I could count the numbers using 1 hellhound that is then rejuvinated to nether hound, and then rejuvinated again. Point is: The truth is somewhere in between.


Servitor is actually 3 ap, so each ghoul would cost 4 ap and 15 MP. That 4 ghoul squad is actually 16 ap.
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Tomppa
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 19, 2015 11:23 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saint_Jimmy wrote:
Tomppa wrote:


In this example, you've given the lich free corpses - best case scenario for him. If we take away those, and assume he has to servitor them, it's suddenly 15 mp and 2 ap per ghoul. Thus, a fairer comparison would be, say, 4 ghouls for 60 mp (and 8 AP) vs 3 nether hounds (60 mp and 3 AP) instead of saying "half the cost" or "double the horde". Or, if I wanted to cherry pick, I could count the numbers using 1 hellhound that is then rejuvinated to nether hound, and then rejuvinated again. Point is: The truth is somewhere in between.


Servitor is actually 3 ap, so each ghoul would cost 4 ap and 15 MP. That 4 ghoul squad is actually 16 ap.


Huh, didn't know it was so expensive. Well, doesn't really change my point, though.

Aidan - Thought the health regen only worked on chars, not on pets too, but that explains a lot.

And rael - Yes, when comparing just MP cost, hounds are twice as expensive, but as I said, you can't just compare the MP cost, forgetting all other differences between the classes. Like the fact that a ghoul apparently costs not 2, but 4 ap (and 15 mp to cost) -if you don't have a corpse-. Comparing 4 ap and 15 MP, vs 1 ap and 20 MP, I think the costs seem pretty balanced.
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