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Wyrm Master Imp Suggestion
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 12:46 pm    Post subject: Wyrm Master Imp Suggestion Reply with quote

Now this summon, I have been playing with it and it seams way to expensive MP wise to summon and CP wise for the cost of its child skills.

My suggestion: Make imp 10 mp to summon (why is it more expensive than a Ghoul?) and make the child skills Interpose Thrall and Impish Mischief 30 CP to learn.

That's the idea.
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Repth
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 1:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Imp cost is leveraged through Impish Mischief. I find this more appropriate for GNak tentacles, as I've mentioned in my post in your other thread, so I don't think imps need this.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 4:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Repth wrote:
Imp cost is leveraged through Impish Mischief. I find this more appropriate for GNak tentacles, as I've mentioned in my post in your other thread, so I don't think imps need this.


For the impish mischief bonus I still don't feel its is worth the MP cost of the summon. Why is the Imp (a less effective summon over all) more MP costly than a Ghoul, and more CP intensive? 150 CP total.
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Saint_Jimmy
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 29, 2015 5:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fully upgraded ghouls are 90 cp + 60 cp for simulacrum. Don't forget the 30 cp for servitor.

180 cp spent, costs 4 ap + 15 mp (Cause you probably won't have a corpse lying about, at least in my experience as a lich.)

Ghouls need a buff!
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Aidan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's Wyrm Master dammit Razz

Anyway, I am not entirely sure what this suggestion will accomplish, not having acquired imp skills yet for an accurate assessment of the situation (other wyrm masters have told me somewhat conflicting stories when it came to handling imps).

On one hand, an imp horde of 10 is theoretically 5.5 MP per pet tick, which I get told repeatedly. On the other hand, there are PMs who tell me that they had trouble summoning any interesting number of pets with the drained MP and DH was supremely superior when it came to MP recovery choices for the WM.

I don't deny that imps should get a buff if they are weak, but the buff should probably improve their ability to generate MP, if required, instead of boosting their numbers to astronomical levels (that's very aethersprite-y!). For starters, I would replace their armor-corrupting skill with something that is more generally useful.

The ghoul summoning cost argument doesn't stand, since Aethersprites are a 20 MP summon and the Lightsprite's utility/defensive pet, while Wisps cost exactly 15 MP as well.

The CP cost argument isn't a very good one since Aethersprites cost the exact same amount, so there's a precedent for defensive pets costing more than offensive pets CP-wise, if you want to fully upgrade them, at the very least.

------

Saint_Jimmy wrote:
Ghouls need a buff!


Are you being facetious, or is there really some reason ghouls need a buff that I missed when looking at the PM thread?
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Quixotic
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:35 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have had a lot of fun with Interposing Thrall last breath, and seen it slow down raids when attacking factions with a smart WM and interposing thrall imps set passive. Yes, those imps will not generate MP for you if you keep them passive, but I really like how the WM can choose to have an "Aggressive" mode for when they're hunting/active and a "Defense mode" for when they're idle.
I would suggest a boost that makes Interposing Thrall imps burst out in a bubble of acid and deal 8 acid damage to whoever killed them (if actively killed and not through Aura or making them exhaust) and 4 splash acid damage to 2 other enemies if any.
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Aidan
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 1:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quixotic wrote:
-Good Things-


Are you suggesting exploding pets!? ARE YOU!!?

Because I think you are.

And I love you for that <3

On a serious note, we might have to tone the damage down. Essentially, this gives WMs a, uh, summoned acid aura that deals 8 damage, plus 8 more to people who weren't even attacking the WM. Modest figures like 5 Acid to the attacker and 3 splashed Acid on someone else bring it more in line with the lich's Servitor of the Grave when fully prepped.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aidan I have an issue with Petmaster MP costs in general. As example the ghoul arguably the best pet in the game, 10 mp to summon.

It is the MP costs of pets that grind my gears the most. For 15 mp it hardly makes for a large gaggle of Imps, there damage type is 5 fire damage with no secondary attack. Pretty lame for 15 MP.

It is the mp cost on most (notice how I said most , not all) pets. Now I have tried feral PM play and factioned play. Sitting in the SH cutting, rejuving repeat is rather dull. The bigger the horde, the less hunt grinding you get at a smaller travel distance.

This is because of the mp costs. The only pet I currantly feel is at the right mp cost is the ghoul. This is why you get the complaint from WM's about hell hounds v other PM's as their horde is considarably smaller, through MP restrictions.

Like I said Imp looks attractive on paper, but 'cos of its MP cost, I wouldn't really bother. Especially with Impish Mischief whitch looks like a total waste of CP.

Interpose thrall is a good skill, but again juggling imps , hell hounds and tentacles keeps me in a Pinned sitting cycle at the SH. With less mana abillity than say a Lich; and in some cases less roaming / hunting abillity through MP costs that are slightly to high, usually 5MP to high in most pet cases.

It would be nice to be able to hunt once in every 2 or 3 ap cycles. Rather than once or twice a week. The bigger the horde the less distance you can go. This is specially true on the Lich with no real movement skill. As Phylactory is a little dated and way to much in re-spawn costs and mp costs for a summoner on such a small map).
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Sihoiba
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 2:47 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

R.E pet MP costs, this might be my faulty memory, but I'm pretty sure that the current number of pets a WM can support was the intended number of pets we wanted a PM to have when designing them and that the Lich actually achieves much bigger hordes than we planned.

Having said that the Breath 4 mechanical team having even started looking at Pets yet, so who knows what they'll decide for next breath.
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Saint_Jimmy
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aidan wrote:
Are you being facetious, or is there really some reason ghouls need a buff that I missed when looking at the PM thread?


Totally facetious. Please no one use this as an argument to buff ghouls, they're super strong as it is. I mostly just wanted to point out the flaw in RaelCleap's comparison of MP costs - the ghoul is typically 15 MP and 4 ap to summon.

R.E Sihoiba - I seem to recall a note on the wiki by Ongewitter saying most PMs could expect to maintain around 10 pets easily, with the lich doubling that? I know that what you said matches my experience with PMs, anyway.

And RaelCleap, yes, an imp doesn't do much damage. Neither does an aethersprite, neither does a will-o-wisp. That's what you should be comparing it to.

As to wanting to be able to go hunting once every two or three cycles... You could simply summon less pets to restrict you even less? Spend less prep time for a sightly smaller payoff. (Exploding pets is awesome though.)
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SocialJusticeWarrior
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 5:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aidan wrote:
The ghoul summoning cost argument doesn't stand, since Aethersprites are a 20 MP summon...

Minor nitpick, but keep in mind that this cost gets much cheaper if the LS buys Brother's Bond. That causes 2-4 sprites (average of 2.5) to be summoned for every 20 MP, instead of just one.
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Kiralio
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

In practice Judgemasters and Sprites are really only 15 MP per summon, as well, since you'd be crazy not to take Caretaker's Blessing.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 30, 2015 11:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Saint_Jimmy wrote:
Aidan wrote:
Are you being facetious, or is there really some reason ghouls need a buff that I missed when looking at the PM thread?


Totally facetious. Please no one use this as an argument to buff ghouls, they're super strong as it is. I mostly just wanted to point out the flaw in RaelCleap's comparison of MP costs - the ghoul is typically 15 MP and 4 ap to summon.

R.E Sihoiba - I seem to recall a note on the wiki by Ongewitter saying most PMs could expect to maintain around 10 pets easily, with the lich doubling that? I know that what you said matches my experience with PMs, anyway.

And RaelCleap, yes, an imp doesn't do much damage. Neither does an aethersprite, neither does a will-o-wisp. That's what you should be comparing it to.

As to wanting to be able to go hunting once every two or three cycles... You could simply summon less pets to restrict you even less? Spend less prep time for a sightly smaller payoff. (Exploding pets is awesome though.)


True and I tried this, but with diminished xp from pets doing the killing the only way to get a viable amount of xp on a hunt is with a big horde. Don't get me wrong the xp factor is not a gripe, it is a balancing feature chained to the power of the horde. But does encourage sitting and big horde building. This is also an agument for lowering the more expensive pets in MP. The lack of SM for the WM also hurts them in this regard as there main horde pet is rather costly.

This is why the common trend is SH sit , use DH or sm, heal, rejuv. You also find you end up healing for xp rather than hunting. My horde is currantly at 24 on my Lich, just ghouls, it has taken me two days to build, with considarable ap / hp / mp and resorce investment with no hunting other than one quick jaunt into the library right next to the SH for two ghoul gain.

To maintain this I am practically parked now. Or I go hunt and loose half the Z's to decay, or end up sitting at the sh for another 4 days (as i no longer have the resorces I had to build the horde). It gets slower on a smaller horde for the WM or if the lich adds Wights to the mix. I have no experiance with a lightspeaker.

Out of all three main PM's the WM is the red headed stepchild (and in some cases the sudo petmasters, I know my chain gremlin has out performed any other pet I have had thus far). The WM is a fun class for sure, but definately the worst PM in game. I think this is because of pet MP costs, specially in the case of the M pets.

Imp being the main example. For its total cp to max it, it just isn't worth 15 mp.

I feel just the same about will-o-wisp, but wisp is a 30 cp investment that chains to wight witch in itself is a great pet wall pet for the SH. It is just 5 mp to expensive for a decaying pet in my opinion.
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RaelCleap
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 7:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Both The Matron and the Nightmare of Patient Zero have been and will be released. (Both my WM's)

For these reasons.

1. The pet wall is redundent v Invun' potions.

2. The MP costs of a lot of their pets are way to high, pinning the WM to the SH and applying a lack of hunting through such high MP costs on the pets. All for a redundant pet wall v a Prepped Raid with invun potions. This limited hunting at dimminished XP I might add.

3. The Mp costs on their pets being to high pins me doing a redundant action. UNlike the pick up and play MP costs of the Lich.

4. Nether Hound as a hunting pet is counter intuative for 2 ap and 40mp to acctually summon.

5. Imp is a mess and is overpriced in CP and MP for what it is.

So why play one?


I retired mine for the above reasons, the main reason being this one, Invun potion v petwall redundancy and the MP costs on its pets being to high.

The Dogma of the Wyrm Master is to spend time pinned in the Stronghold repeating a slow process that is redundant and costs far to much MP.

This ^ To me looks like the definition of madness.

So with my Worm masters disapointedly retired and that's the last freaking time I point out Issues.

So until we see Invun potions erased or MP costs lowered, it is pointless to play one.
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Tomppa
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PostPosted: Sat Nov 28, 2015 10:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

RaelCleap, frankly, your arguments make no sense.
Essentially, what you are saying is:
1. Pet's give less XP (per target)(this is true, but they also give more xp per AP spent)
2. You need a large horde (to take down more targets to make up for the smaller xp per target)
3. Large horde forces you to sit in a SH for several days to gather it up and rejuvenate them
4. Horde size does not matter because they are just as easily swiped away by a prepared raid team.

The problem here seems to be that for some reason, you feel like you need a large horde.
If you were happy to have a few pets, instead of wanting 5 or 10 or 20, you could hunt more often, and thus get more xp, without being pinned to the SH as you say. A raid would also set you back less.
You've set an arbitrary high number of pets as a requirement, while you'd likely perform a lot better with a smaller amount.

Why build a large horde if it means that you can hunt only once in a few days? Why build a large horde if it's swiped away as easily as a smaller one, by raiders? I mean, large horde is obviously cool, but it doesn't sound very effective in... anything.

The Strength of a PM is the fact that they can take a target down, when they find one, with very little AP investment. This frees up more AP to be spent on the actual hunting - that is, searching for a target.

I do agree that the Imp seems a lot weaker than several of the other pets - It's main goal seems to be the ability to sniff out invisible targets - But I just can't see how -more- imps would make it somehow better.
Exploding on death? That sounds like an awesome upgrade.
Stealing more MP? Would make it more interesting.
Have the Imp gain one MP for itself as well when it steals? That would make it awesome, and longer-lived.
More HP so that it could take more blows for it's master? That could be curious too.
It could maybe do with a damage boost, because against any Kinship characters, it will deal at max 2 dmg, and for some reason, most targets my hunters run into, seem to be adamant kinships, so that kinda sucks. Then again, if you run into an Adamant Kinship, maybe the Imp isn't the best choice to summon.
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