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Damage & Morality
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Joined: Dec 30, 2014
Posts: 6

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 2:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I imagined Alonai is the one rewarding healing, Baraas repairing doors power and so on, and Namm smiting evil. At least thats what their area of interests seem to suggest.

Not sure about the loss of mo though. Is that more about the good powers punishing you for opposing them, or the bad ones influencing their followers?

Also, i should probably stop discretely derailing stuff. That's on a side note.
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Nexus Fixture
Nexus Fixture

Joined: Aug 15, 2010
Posts: 3955
Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)

PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 3:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

macabre wrote:
The point you are ignoring is that not everyone has a super sharp sword of smiting and smashing. It's not better to raise a blunt sword than a sharp one, it is equally good to spend your time fighting evil to the best of your ability. As it happens there's no good mechanical way to tell if someone is thwacking evil with a cane to farm morality, or because a cane is their best evil thwacker. I wasn't nitpicking semantics, I was acknowledging this failure of the current system, that it makes no attempt to discern if you are being intentionally ineffective when dispensing morality shifts. If there were a clear way to do that I'd be all in favor of it, but simple damage dealt is not it.

Alrighty Maca, we established pretty early on that yes, there's a problem with the current system allowing people to exploit it in ways they're not supposed to. In counter to this, a new system was created which'd resolve the issue while being justifiable within the flavor. When you objected, Teksura responded to your points fairly and politely. Now you're being obstructive for no reason. Your argument here? It's merely a rehash of what you've already said and it STILL does not contain any mechanical solution to the issue at hand.

macabre wrote:
You are still conflating morality with Namm orthodoxy, as far as I can tell. But far be it from me to argue flavor with the person who rewrote it to suit themselves already.

...and here is where you dug yourself a hole. Allow me to correct you on something. Teksura gave up hours of his time to take each elder power, who until then had existed only as an obscure concept and gave each a personality, a rough backstory and motives, morals and what-have you. And you dare to accuse him of "rewriting" the flavour purely to spite you? Your arrogance disgusts me. I've read the fuller version of Namm, which is slated for a later-breath release, and what Teksura is saying is consistent with what he wrote one year ago.

There's no rewriting. Do not create baseless claims unless you're willing to face the consequences of them.

macabre wrote:
I don't think Namm should be more pleased by ineffective flailing, I think that striking against evil is a Good act, and the morality system should reflect this.

This doesn't support your stance here. Just saying. We're not changing things to be "Mortals can't get mortality shifts", the new system just reflects effectiveness vs effort rather than just expendature of energy.

macabre wrote:
I'm surprised you don't think it's a problem that a mortal can't Do Good against armored evil. You keep dragging out the current worst-case "abuse" and handwaving away the problems with your solution.

This would be better put if you actually pointed out these problems. Mechanical problems. Not flavour-based.

macabre wrote:
Isn't it silly that killing a void walker is less Good than fixing a few doors?

Well if you only ever attack armoured enemies...

There's a reason why Unwinnable by insanity is a thing.

macabre wrote:
It's a silly system top to bottom. The main concern should be gameplay, and excluding weaker combat characters from meaningful morality shifts is Bad Gameplay.

Beating on an infernal behemoth with a rock or your fists was never meaningful. We just didn't have incentive to fix it before. Now we do and offer a better system. To use a flavour comparison, it'd be the little 12 year old who watches his family get killed, then beans the monster on its head with a slingshot pellet, then has to be rescued by the hero, lest the kid be eaten. This is not a meaningful attack on the demon. It's suicide by proxy.

macabre wrote:
AP is the most precious resource and making MO management AP-limited is a decent system that obviously works. Making it so that efficiency is important means that the fightier classes have greater ability to muck with their own MO - they need more victims than before, but now there's an imbalance between the classes, which I bet will be "addressed" by making it nearly impossible to kill an angel and keep good MO unless you are one of the glass cannon classes, and penance will be costlier because whoops, all your damage bonuses are gone and it takes a full AP cycle to get 2 points of MO now. I guess that could be a design goal.

Notice that fighter classes, who gain MO at a faster rate, also happen to coincidently be the ones who also will expend it at a faster rate? Conversely, those who would gain MO slower also lose it slower (ie support classes). It also addresses a known issue where a single good Seraph or Eternal Soldier could attack an aggressive-to-hostiles good petmaster and ping their MO down to 19 (for a LS) or -40 (For a Lich) without any trouble.

Furthermore if you take a full AP cycle to deal 20 damage, you're doing it wrong. Either you've geared yourself poorly, you've chosen terrible targets or you're trying to play with no combat tree. No matter the case, the simple version is you're playing Nexus wrong.

macabre wrote:
Raising a sword against evil is Good even if it is a blunt sword. Your system completely fails to capture this. The current system overvalues blunter weapons. There are clearly problems but your proposed change makes more problems and worse.

Raising a sword against evil in such a way that you just get your face bashed in by evil is not noble, it's a waste of life. The best I'd argue for here is that you get a flat +1 MO for your first attack against a demon, then after that you're judged based on your effort. After you've proven to Namm your willingness to fight demons (and he gives you a boon to MO for it), he will be judging you based on your success from then on. Continually going "Look at me Namm, I'm mildly annoying this demon!" will not impress the zealous Lord of Justice. It will only make him go "The thing ain't dead yet. Finish the job already!"

So, in order to finish up this thread before it got derailed again, the devs had a complete discussion, using all the points raised in the thread. Since we have now worked out the new system, we don't need this thread anymore. I'll be moving this to finalised suggestions.

"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
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