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Nexus Clash :: View topic - [GAMEPLAY]: Fortifications (CHANGE)
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[GAMEPLAY]: Fortifications (CHANGE)
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LoganRuns
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PostPosted: Fri Jan 04, 2013 3:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie wrote:
Casters can learn a spell to destroy forts.
How about a spell that places a grenade from the spellcasters inventory deep inside the forts, giving bonus damage?
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Thie
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PostPosted: Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

OP updated to include Kandarin's suggestion.

Double dmg removed. I think that requiring 40CP, 25+AP, and 5 components for a fort that will fall down on its own in 5 days is enough. Soak is maxed at 5, and does not stack.

2 more questions:

-Should walls require less to build than a fort inside a building? A strong struct-eng with factional support for materials can only maintain 10 walls.

-Is the decay rate too fast? (one level/100hp per day)

-Should walls bar greater movement since they provide no soak? I'm thinking that normal, strong and very strong might be impassable, while weak cost 10AP and very weak 5AP to cross.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 5:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Wow. Having participated in my first nexusclash raid against a fortified opponent, I have to say that I detest the entire fortification mechanic in nexus clash. Much MORE griefier than nexuswar, not less. Why not just make a ward twice as strong but require maintenance?

It seems strange to me to create a mechanic that benefits large raiding factions in a game with such a small playerbase...

The game would be better with no fortifications at all. Walls were great. Forts are crap.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie wrote:
Why not just make a ward twice as strong but require maintenance?


Simply because Fortifications give Tanks and Petmasters a purpose. Without those fortifications, petmasters are sitting ducks again, like they were in NW. With petmasters as sitting ducks, why do you even need someone specialized in taking them out? Fortifications exist entirely to give Petmasters a chance to get a couple shots off with their pets before they get slaughtered.


You say a lot about how much you hate attacking defenses inside (fortifications) as opposed to attacking defenses outside (ward), but you don't explain why or what the problem was in this one raid. So, what happened there?
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Thie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There was no problem, really. We only had a 4 man team, and that means we cannot raid any factions who fortify....unless we change the members of the team.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 7:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:

Simply because Fortifications give Tanks and Petmasters a purpose. Without those fortifications, petmasters are sitting ducks again, like they were in NW. With petmasters as sitting ducks, why do you even need someone specialized in taking them out? Fortifications exist entirely to give Petmasters a chance to get a couple shots off with their pets before they get slaughtered.


Then these fortifications were successful. Our team will never have enough AP to destroy both ward and fortifications. Couldn't the pets take damage for any attacks against the petmaster instead? I was a lich and a lightspeaker in nexuswar and I felt like less of a sitting duck than I did today.

I think I just need to adapt to the fact that small factions are not viable. We can't break a ward, kill a few people, and run anymore. Now we have to break a ward, destroy fortifications, and AP out...
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 8:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie wrote:
Teksura wrote:
Thie wrote:
Why not just make a ward twice as strong but require maintenance?

Simply because Fortifications give Tanks and Petmasters a purpose. Without those fortifications, petmasters are sitting ducks again, like they were in NW. With petmasters as sitting ducks, why do you even need someone specialized in taking them out? Fortifications exist entirely to give Petmasters a chance to get a couple shots off with their pets before they get slaughtered.

Our team will never have enough AP to destroy both ward and fortifications.


So if your team can't knock down 1000 HP of ward and 500 HP of fortifications... How is going up against 1500 HP of ward going to be better? Isn't it a bit silly to blame the fortifications and resolve that they are solely responsible for making you AP out here?


And, hang on a tick. What classes are even a part of this team? Overall, most classes are doing more damage than what was typical in NW, and stronghold defenses were higher back then (Wards had 1500 HP to start, and went up from there. My small faction was sitting comfortable behind a whopping 2400 HP ward back then). So, here is the thing that I'm not getting.

You have a 4 man team. Even if that 4 man team is only doing 10 damage each (this is a very low damage output for most characters. More typical is 15), and you get on site with, say, 55 AP (this is quite a long travel distance)...

That comes to 10 damage * 55 AP * 4 dudes = 2200 damage. This is more than what is required to take down the wards and fortifications.

So I'm really not seeing how 500 HP of fortifications as opposed to an additional 500 HP of ward is what is to blame here. There simply isn't a mathematical reason why this should even be a problem for a 3 man raid team. (3 tanks who deal 15 damage are going to smash the ward and forts and still be able to do around 900 damage to the folks inside. That's enough to potentially kill 12 or 13 people.) Unless you're all playing pacifist healers with no combat trees, I'm not seeing how you can say your team can never hit that 1500 damage mark without being totally spent.




Thie wrote:
I think I just need to adapt to the fact that small factions are not viable. We can't break a ward, kill a few people, and run anymore. Now we have to break a ward, destroy fortifications, and AP out...


Lijitsu already mentioned that being passive-aggressive about this won't help.
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Last edited by Teksura on Fri Jan 18, 2013 2:56 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Quixotic
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:34 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie wrote:

I think I just need to adapt to the fact that small factions are not viable. We can't break a ward, kill a few people, and run anymore. Now we have to break a ward, destroy fortifications, and AP out...

It.. depends what you do. Pretty confident you can take out factions of decent size with just 2-3 characters, depends on the classes of course, but I've regularly have such successful raids. With good organization, the crucial part is mostly having a bashing specialist For pets you can pick up a couple of potions (of course if you're a small faction it does make sense that you won't take out factions with huge petshields of 40+ pets, but that shouldn't be considered wrong) and deal with them, then depending on your class it shouldn't be too hard.
Not going to write an exhaustive "how-to-raid" manual for every single class combination possibilities but you should be able to find a way somehow (unless you guys are 4 Redeemed).
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Niphy
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 9:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maybe they arent all t3 so its harder that way
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Thie
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 10:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:

You have a 4 man team. Even if that 4 man team is only doing 10 damage each (this is a very low damage output for most characters. More typical is 15), and you get on site with, say, 55 AP (this is quite a long travel distance)...

Good point. As I said, I'm basing this off of a single failed raid. My character is not a maxed level 30 doing huge dmg. I'm a newcomer to Nexusclash who was surprised by my total inability to do anything on a raid because my character was only a level 11.

Thie (with edit) wrote:
I think I just need to adapt to the fact that small factions barely capable of breaking a ward are not viable. We can't break a ward, kill a few people, and run anymore. Now we have to break a ward, destroy fortifications, and AP out...
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 17, 2013 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So, Thie and I had a nice chat on IRC where he asked me for some reasoning behind some of the standing design decisions.

The whole reason why the dev team had agreed that barricades was not a good thing to add to structural engineering was because more people are expected to pick up the skill due to the fortification effects. In NW, the skill was often passed up on because the only thing it did was build barricades. It was very specialist, and that kept the random barricades down and kept the map easy enough to navigate.

... So, the notion came up to... I can't believe we didn't think of this sooner... NOT lump the ability to create barricades in with structural engineering; give it its own skill.


So, basically, same situation as NW: You have a specialist skill which only serves the one purpose of constructing barricades which can restrict movement.


Simple. Effective. Addresses the concerns raised against the concept of barricades.
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Mon Jun 10, 2019 2:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not exactly like this, but something using this concept will be in b5.
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