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[GAMEPLAY]: Fortifications (CHANGE)
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Thie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 2:57 am    Post subject: [GAMEPLAY]: Fortifications (CHANGE) Reply with quote

Purpose: To create exterior barricades and improve the flavour of existing fortifications.

Rationale: Players should be able to impact their environment. Currently, only magic users can do so (using wards).

Change:
There are two types of fortifications: Barricades (Interior) and Walls (Exterior). They both function in a similar manner, although barricades provide soak for those inside the building.

Fortifications have 5 levels:

Very Strong - 401-500 HP, Impassable, 10 soak (strongholds), 5 soak other inside locations and requires steel, 0 soak outside
Strong - 301-400 HP, +10 AP to cross, 8 soak (strongholds), 4 soak other inside locations and requires iron or steel, 0 soak outside
Normal - 201-300 HP, +5 AP to cross, 6 soak (strongholds), 3 soak other inside locations and requires wood, iron or steel, 0 soak outside
Weak - 101-200 HP, +2 AP to cross, 4 soak (strongholds), 2 soak other inside locations and requires rock, wood, iron or steel, 0 soak outside
Very Weak - 1-100 HP, +1 AP to cross, 2 soak (strongholds), 1 soak other inside locations and requires no components, 0 soak outside

All fortifications decay at a rate of 100 HP per 24 hours (one level per day)

Building Fortifications:
- Fortifications can be constructed inside any building (not just strongholds) and outside along one side of a tile.
- The difference between walls and barricades would be that Walls bar/slow movement from one tile to another tile (and diagonally) and do not provide soak for a character once they have crossed the wall.
- Only characters with Structural Engineering can build walls or non-stronghold fortifications.
- Fortifications are built in increments of 100 HP.
- Regular characters in a stronghold spend 20 AP for 100 HP
- Structural engineers spend 10 AP for 100 HP
- Strong structural engineers spend 5 AP for 100 HP (maxed)
- Characters must add a component during construction for all walls beyond very weak. Each successive strengthening of the wall requires rarer components.

Removing Fortifications
- Fortifications can be removed at the same rate that they are created.
- Attacks against fortifications have a 5% chance of a critical hit. A critical hit will immediately knock the fortifications down a level.
-Fortifications can also be destroyed using magic: Destroy Fortifications. 20 cp 20 mp destroys 100 hp of fortifications.


Edited to include suggestions


Last edited by Thie on Sun Jan 06, 2013 11:45 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Ongewitter
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

So pretty much the upcoming change that's been mentioned here already, but with added permanent forts and barricades?

First off, for permanent forts you're going to have to use rarer components. Rocks are found everywhere and I think Steel is the most common component.
Second, 10Soak when not in a SH tile is going to make hunting with ferals much more difficult. I've got a rev that's only dealing 15dmg and he's supposed to be a hunter. With this change, every target I find will only take 5dmg. 6 with Blood Frenzy. And that's without armor. How are T2 characters supposed to deal with that?
Third, your suggestions to Thrown Weapons is just that, only for Thrown Weapons users. What are Melee, Spell, Archery and Gun types going to do? You're just forcing everyone to go with a Throwing class in order to not be griefed by barricades everywhere. Unless those anti-barricade weapons wouldn't be restricted to any one attack tree, but then everyone's going to have to lug around one of those just to counter barricades.
Fourth, what happens when I use a single rock to top off my forts? Are they suddenly permanent?
Lastly, what's with the impassable? Does that apply only to forts or only to barricades? Because it'd be funny to block people's passage in/outside of tiles. Also a great way to stop raids dead in their tracks unless they can fly.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 9:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Have you played nexuswar or urban dead before? Many of these ideas stem from those two games. The exterior fortifications would be walls, not forts. They would not provide soak but would hinder movement.

If i understand you, you worry that hunting as a ferals will become more difficult because there will be many more mini-strongholds. Another idea i toyed with added a 5% chance of a critical hit, which would reduce the barricades one level.

Do you think that every character will barricade themselves inside each night? Maybe weapons like the axe, chainsaw, torch, flamethrower should do extra dmg to fortifications?
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Lijitsu
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 1:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not everyone wants to be forced to carry around those weapons just to get into some resource buildings. Not to mention, not every character even uses weapons. I have a pacifist, and the unarmed tree is currently pretty viable as well. And what about spells? You're cutting out any characters that don't use weapons in one form or another, and that's a pretty sizable chunk of our - rather small - player base. I know I'm personally in the (very) small minority as a pacifist, but that doesn't mean I should get completely shafted just because I wanted to roleplay my character.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2012 7:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Lijitsu:

You would only be limited from entering a building with a very strong barricade.

Maybe engineering/structural engineering should allow you to take down fortifications as well. There should probably be a spell equivalent as well.

Ie: destroy fortifications. 20 cp 10 mp destroys 100 hp of fortifications.

@ongewitter

1. Which resources would you recommend for walls? I went with rocks because that should give equal odds to those taking them down.

2. Do you think 5,4,3,2,1 soak outside of strongholds would be more appropriate?

3. What if we give bonuses vs fortifications to axes/sledges and create fire bow and cannon weapons? Would that spread it out enough? Keep in mind that barricades in nexuswar were easily enough destroyed with regular weapons. The catapult weapon was just an idea to improve thrown weapons while providing a quick way to destroy fortifications.

4. My thoughts were that you would need 1 rock per level of fortifications. So 5 rocks for a stronghold or single tile of wall. (But would you really want impassable stronghold gates?) And yes, the goal would be to limit the movement of opposing players.

I should probably say that the thing I miss most about nexus war are the places players created using barricades. Foghaven, and most importantly the fortress of raggitude were places where various groups came together outside of their strongholds. Others came to these places to hunt. It added a dimension to the game that clash lacks. A dimension i miss...
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Ongewitter
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 7:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think it hilarious (because it seems like an angry rant Razz) doing this, but I'll quote and answer one topic at a time.
Thie wrote:
Have you played nexuswar or urban dead before? Many of these ideas stem from those two games. The exterior fortifications would be walls, not forts. They would not provide soak but would hinder movement.

If I remember correctly, those UD fortifications had specific points where you could enter a group of forted buildins. Now, as a zombie, you rarely could get in a house by yourself to find someone to chew on. I admit I only played UD as a loner and not even that long (you maxed out surprisingly quick), but that's what I remembered.

Quote:
If i understand you, you worry that hunting as a ferals will become more difficult because there will be many more mini-strongholds. Another idea i toyed with added a 5% chance of a critical hit, which would reduce the barricades one level.

Yeah, but that would mean on average about 5 extra damage per hit. It'd require real luck to make a big difference. Maybe that anti-barricades weapon could just knock down one level each time?

Quote:
Do you think that every character will barricade themselves inside each night? Maybe weapons like the axe, chainsaw, torch, flamethrower should do extra dmg to fortifications?

I think that everyone would go to sleep in a pre-fortified location. Most likely a resource building that a nearby faction forted up ... unless

Quote:
You would only be limited from entering a building with a very strong barricade.

Unless we prevent non-factionmates from even entering forted buildings. And that seems excessively griefy. Any devoted faction could just bar any other faction from entering their much-needed resource buildings or at least make it a big effort every time.

Quote:
Maybe engineering/structural engineering should allow you to take down fortifications as well. There should probably be a spell equivalent as well.

Ie: destroy fortifications. 20 cp 10 mp destroys 100 hp of fortifications.

See, if a suggestion requires a bunch of side-suggestions to balance it out or something, maybe it's not a good suggestion?
You know, KISS

Quote:
1. Which resources would you recommend for walls? I went with rocks because that should give equal odds to those taking them down.

Well, that's where it gets silly. I'd suggest Blood Ice or Onyx or something with 1%chance per AP of finding it. Wood, Steel and Plastic can be found at 8%, 6% and 4% respectively. But imagining people constructing barricades using tiny red gems is kinda funny.

Quote:
2. Do you think 5,4,3,2,1 soak outside of strongholds would be more appropriate?

As Teksura mentioned in the other thread, Tier-based soak would probably be best. It would also reflect how difficult a T3 is supposed to be to kill compared to a T1, combat experience and other stuff and it would still provide viable targets for poor T1 characters.

[quote]3. What if we give bonuses vs fortifications to axes/sledges and create fire bow and cannon weapons? Would that spread it out enough? Keep in mind that barricades in nexuswar were easily enough destroyed with regular weapons. The catapult weapon was just an idea to improve thrown weapons while providing a quick way to destroy fortifications. [quote]
I think in NW those cades were easily destroyed because a Fire enchanted Axe did triple damage. That's 167 damage instead of 500, which is a lot more manageable.
Though I'm not sure about it since I never had anything enchanted because I didn't raid and the NWWiki doesn't mention any bonuses Razz

Quote:
4. My thoughts were that you would need 1 rock per level of fortifications. So 5 rocks for a stronghold or single tile of wall. (But would you really want impassable stronghold gates?) And yes, the goal would be to limit the movement of opposing players.

As was said, limiting movement is griefy. But what if I created one of these hypothetical barricades using a rock a few times up until 200HP. Then another person comes along and adds one click worth of HP. Does the barricade now decay as if it was entirely constructed with no components? Because otherwise, there's going to be a bunch of extra parameters involved to keep track of who constructed which part of the 'cade with which components.
So either the components used add nothing after someone hits it once and adds a single click of forts so it decays as normal or you construct it without components and only the last click gets a component causing the entire 'cade to no longer decay.

Quote:
I should probably say that the thing I miss most about nexus war are the places players created using barricades. Foghaven, and most importantly the fortress of raggitude were places where various groups came together outside of their strongholds. Others came to these places to hunt. It added a dimension to the game that clash lacks. A dimension i miss...

I think this could be accomplished using something like an external Stronghold ward of sorts. You buy an upgrade and forego your internal SH ward to make it encompass like, I dunno, 3x3 tiles? And only similarly aligned characters would be able to enter it without having to smash down the ward.
I dunno, I just came up with that in five seconds Razz
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Lijitsu
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've played Urban Dead since 2005 as a dedicated zombie. I bought Brain Rot before the Headshot nerf, as my level 5 skill. I can safely say that having a UD style barricade system would be complete BS. I have a hard enough time dealing with locked doors. As a low level character, your damage output is pitiful. You can easily burn through 10+ AP trying to get through a door. Now add to that, you've got to get through an extra 100+ HP of fortifications. Or you can wander around until you find a VSB building and then never actually leave that area because you know it's maintained at VSB. But oh wait, that's the only building you can enter because free-running doesn't exist for anyone except T3s. Who could just rip through the barricades and the door in less AP than it takes you to get through just the door.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

For the record, I never found nwalls griefy. No more griefy than any other pvp element of the game.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 9:15 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ongewitter wrote:

See, if a suggestion requires a bunch of side-suggestions to balance it out or something, maybe it's not a good suggestion?
You know, KISS


I guess not. This suggestion forum works differently than I expected. Apparently good ideas must be simplistic and basic, and if you refine your idea based on the input of others than the idea must be a bad one.

Now I understand why the forums are so quiet.
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corky
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:05 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I see this doing is just making hunting even harder than it is currently (I have one T3 character with ES that hunts a bit who finds about 1 t2/t3 every 2 or three days) not only do you have to find people but you have to deal with added soak from fortifications as well. I see what this is trying to do but with the current game population I don't think this is a good idea at all.
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 11:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'd like to reiterate my suggestion of making this simpler by tying components to caps. Fortification above a certain level should start requiring material components, and reaching the higher levels of fortification should require rarer or more numerous components (except for stronghold fortifications, which would still be free). This would accomplish what your suggestion is trying to accomplish without a lot of special rules and loopholes.
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Lijitsu
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 4:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thie wrote:
I guess not. This suggestion forum works differently than I expected. Apparently good ideas must be simplistic and basic, and if you refine your idea based on the input of others than the idea must be a bad one.

Now I understand why the forums are so quiet.


The forums aren't really that quiet, the population is just small. And being passive-aggressive about this really doesn't help your case at all.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Lijitsu wrote:
And being passive-aggressive about this really doesn't help your case at all.


Apologies. I'm just disappointed.
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Thie
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PostPosted: Sat Dec 29, 2012 6:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Edited the OP to include suggestions.

Three current questions remain:

1. Does it still need tier-based soak with the levels provided?
2. Are numbers balanced?
3. Are wood and steel the appropriate materials to use? I prefer rock, but don't know the find rate.
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Ongewitter
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 6:21 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rocks
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