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Preachy crap
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EstimatedProphet
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:20 am    Post subject: Preachy crap Reply with quote

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Just so we are all on the same page, I strongly disagree with their being a ''safe'' zone smack bang in the middle of my hunting grounds, allowing anyone and everyone to hide up in here safe from harm. I believe this is against the spirit of the game and as such will continue to visit and attempt to persuade you all to venture out into the great wide world"


I made a post about this in the IC forums, but it's clearly not an IC issue. This is the second 'protest' kill in as many days.

I recognize that my characters are going to be killed, but I don't like this type of kill. First of all, it breaks the fourth wall to announce that you're killing me because I'm doing something "against the spirit of the game." That's a minor complaint, but it's still annoying. The second complaint I have is that I don't agree with this crap.

Do you folks realize that the knob's patrons have multiple characters? I've got four, and 75% of my characters are 'in the fight.' I like that the game offers interesting RP opportunities, though- it's got an interesting, colorful player community, and since it's text based and allows you to emote as well as just chat, players have a great creative range within the game. The main constraints are that most exchanges are fairly one sided, because you're either killing your target or being killed by some random hunter before they log on to respond, and that when you want to try to have a two-way exchange you're mostly limited to hiding behind a ward and talking to your own faction.

The kill/be killed dynamic is fun, but why, if some of the game's players have decided they want to take one of their several characters and gather for RP without all having to be in the same faction and cloistered behind a ward (which is much safer than being in the knob), should that bother you so much?

I get the "no safe harbor for hunters" argument. If someone is sleeping in the Knob, then going out to hunt down the neighbors, I can see why you would want to kill them. I even get the "no farming" argument, but I'm not really trying to farm anything (except arguably booze, but it isn't just a badge grind- I simply like logging in to see my character still drunk from his last bender, since it's a worthless drunk/junkie themed character). Admittedly, I've gained more xp in the knob lately than I did before I got blood taste and a bunch of hp, but that's incidental to my need to heal. I even get the "I'm going to kill you because you're an easy kill" argument, that's a fairly obvious liability when you're parking a character in a popular location with no ward.

But the "no safe zones anywhere" argument is just obviously silly, given that wards provide strong protection against roaming hunters for anyone in a faction. The "everyone has to be violent" idea is also obviously silly, given that there are support classes, and crafter and healer builds are commonplace. And even if there weren't obvious mechanical incentives to play it safe and non-violently, it would STILL be dickish to say "I'm going to target you because I think you have to play the game the way I do, with every one of your characters, no exceptions."

We're mostly playing it the same way you do- just not with these characters. These characters are actually LESS safe than the characters we have hiding behind wards (even just accounting for the folks using the knob as an easy hunting ground), and they're mostly less likely to have any impact on your characters. Why do you feel the need to try to break up our fun? If you don't, and you're just looking for targets who aren't hiding behind a ward- then don't pretend to have an opinion and condescend to us about how we're playing the game. Just think of something funny to say, put on a little show, and get that sweet kill xp.
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BeefSteak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, until Shadok's little Protection Racket happened, I legitimately didn't know what the hell the Oaken Knob was. I'd heard people say they farmed it both ways, but I just didn't care enough to figure out what it was. Then Shadok happened.

That whole situation left a bad taste in my mouth. Yes, it's primarily set up as an area where everyone can role play. But you also have to agree that people are farming the hell out of stats. Booze, yeah, I can understand to a degree, but damage dealt, healing, ect. Those will all wind up granting CP and giving them an advantage as soon as they choose to stop "role playing". That's what (in my opinion) is one of the big things stuck in people's craw about the whole idea. It's a safe haven for people to grind stats that are going to get them extra CP that is going to help them out, and hiding it behind the guise of Role Play.

To me, the biggest thing that pissed me off about it was Shadok's intervention and Bob's inclusion of an in-game deterrent. It's not needed, and if anything just drew more eyes onto the Knob. If you want to sit around an role play all day with your characters, feel free, but don't expect everyone to pass up the chance for easy XP/Kills. What you need to do is what EVERY other place that has tried to do this did. The Ragged Fort didn't have jorm come down on high with his bass guitar and Lemmy-stache to smite the wicked who dared hunt their hallowed fort. They made friends with the RRF, and used as many game mechanics as they could in their favor to keep people safe.

Because, honestly, all this drama makes me WANT to hunt the Knob now. Even when Bob's deterrent is fixed, it's still going to give Damage Dealt/Kills so something still will come out of it. Also crying. :V
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Sihoiba
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's not "Bob's deterrent". We want people to have fun playing this game, we want to support people ability to have fun in interesting and unique ways. We cannot stop people gaming the system, but we can put in incentives to make people play more fairly.

The faction upgrades Bob implemented are designed to enable these sort of creative endeavors while discouraging farming. None of them make it a safe haven, they certainly don't stop you being killed. They certainly don't take away any incentive to clear the faction hosting.

What they will do is stop the most efficient XP farming (combat), in the hope that it encourages the roleplay we like.

When the upgrade bug is fixed, if you don't like the existence of the Knob or want to just kill there's nothing that will stop you from clearing the place or grabbing their standard. At least you won't be doing it to farm XP
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happy_trauma
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:11 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Outside of the in-character forum I don't participate much here. However as founder and proprietor of the Oaken Knob I feel compelled to finally post something about this.

It's my understanding that the "no xp per kill" is an upgrade that has to be purchased through the faction store, correct? I would like everyone to know that I have no intention (and never did) of buying that upgrade. I didn't ask for that upgrade to be created, either, although I was aware that there were conversations going on about that sort of thing. I plan to keep the Knob in its current "get XP for doing stuff" status for the duration of the nexal breath, because it just seems like the right thing to do.

I do plan to purchase the "permanently disable the ward" upgrade when that becomes available to us. As a nonraiding faction we gain honor very slowly so it might be a while.

As discussed in another thread, I did agree to let a dev-owned character do some smiting in the Knob. In retrospect maybe I shouldn't have; but I didn't really think too hard about it at the time, and I don't think it's the biggest deal in the world.

I've been involved with the Nexal community since the early days of NW, but I'm also a pretty casual player - I'm not really into the game mechanics. My character builds are pretty sub-optimal and mostly what I do is sit around and role-play. I mean, mostly what I've done with the Knob since starting it, is search for bottles of booze, and then give them to non-faction characters. (i.e. serve drinks).

As far as XP farming within the Knob goes, I really don't know how to impact it. I will admit that I often heal patrons since that is the best way this particular character can gain XP, given my choice of roleplay for it. I could post a "no XP farming" notice in the Knob, but I've also posted a "no killing" notice, and we all know how well that works - even on a quiet day, the pub is like the OK Corral at high noon.

If anyone has suggestions on how I could improve the game experience of the Knob through in-game mechanics, please post them. Smile
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BeefSteak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sihoiba wrote:
It's not "Bob's deterrent". We want people to have fun playing this game, we want to support people ability to have fun in interesting and unique ways. We cannot stop people gaming the system, but we can put in incentives to make people play more fairly.

The faction upgrades Bob implemented are designed to enable these sort of creative endeavors while discouraging farming. None of them make it a safe haven, they certainly don't stop you being killed. They certainly don't take away any incentive to clear the faction hosting.

What they will do is stop the most efficient XP farming (combat), in the hope that it encourages the roleplay we like.

When the upgrade bug is fixed, if you don't like the existence of the Knob or want to just kill there's nothing that will stop you from clearing the place or grabbing their standard. At least you won't be doing it to farm XP


See, you're making it sound like people who go around killing people are playing the game wrong. I never heard anyone say that attacking the Ragged Fort was "gaming the system".

And Combat is hardly the most efficient XP source. If you just count the act itself, sure, but travel and finding targets is what keeps it down. Having a faction that has no ward that is known for having lots of people in it... well that just makes it a bit easier.

So is it really just the XP gained from killing in the Knob that you're against?

And Happy_Trauma, what I always thought would be flavorlicious as hell would be to try and contract the EUPD to police the knob. It'd be a great source of RP for both factions. EUPD could have daily EoD Reports, dispatch teams to deal with the murderers and law-breakers, maybe have a few sitting in the Knob itself. Just something that I, personally, would love to see if the EUPD and you were willing to try it out. It actually might get me to join EUPD.
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Sihoiba
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

BeefSteak wrote:
See, you're making it sound like people who go around killing people are playing the game wrong. I never heard anyone say that attacking the Ragged Fort was "gaming the system".


Not my intention, people heal farming in the Knob was/is gaming the system. Just like two pariah's with blood taste attacking each other would be gaming the system. Just like a certain faction at the start of the breath keeping farming healing/hurting non faction members they kept behind their ward was gaming the system.

We can't prevent people abusing things, that doesn't mean we shouldn't support/encourage people doing interesting things.

So the no XP upgrade comes with two advantages, one if you want to create a roleplay location it allows you to trade off the ability to profitably defend yourself to encourage others to come and roleplay there, and two it prevents people coming there purely to farm things.

BeefSteak wrote:
So is it really just the XP gained from killing in the Knob that you're against?


Nope. It's the heal/injury farming I'm primarily against, and the secondary attitude of people should be discouraged from roleplaying somewhere. I admit I have indulged in a bit of the former with one of my characters, but that's the problem with temptation it's hard to resist.

BeefSteak wrote:
And Happy_Trauma, what I always thought would be flavorlicious as hell would be to try and contract the EUPD to police the knob. It'd be a great source of RP for both factions. EUPD could have daily EoD Reports, dispatch teams to deal with the murderers and law-breakers, maybe have a few sitting in the Knob itself. Just something that I, personally, would love to see if the EUPD and you were willing to try it out. It actually might get me to join EUPD.


Speaking as the leader of the EUPD I fully support this idea.
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BeefSteak
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:55 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

And we completely agree on that. I dislike that people are abusing a place that is meant to be a haven for RP to bump up their stats/XP. I honestly don't think that many people have a problem with the idea of a space meant for RP, it's the people who are abusing it that are the ones earning the ire of the rest of the game.

If EUPD does wind up doing that idea, let me know. I might have a character for you guys Wink
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Kharn
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Correct me if I'm wrong, but no one in NW fucked with the YOCS, right?

Anyone has any idea why is that?
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BobGeneric
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 12:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

1. This is really more "Rules Discussion" than "Out-of-Character" discussion, and so it's being moved there.

2. I think that there is no "one right way" to play the game. Those who wish to role-play, role-play. Those who wish to fight, fight. Those who wish to explore, explore. Those who wish to grind, grind. And so on.

3. The activities that a given player - including myself - enjoys in the game are not necessarily the same activities others enjoy in the game. Trying to add mechanics to "force" people to play a certain style is counter-productive... it is trying to put apply a mechanical solution to a social problem (and one which may not even be a problem at all).

4. My goal from the beginning when creating NexusClash was to deliberately aim for mechanics that offer all styles of play approximately equal influence (look up Richard Bartle's essay on types MUD players if you care more about the meta-gamey concepts involved here). When a new mechanic is introduced, or an existing mechanic is changed, I am usually doing it to subtly alter a situation where one style of play may have started to dominate other styles of play and rather than "encouraging you to play this way" am trying to bring things into balance where "if you choose to play this way, you can't completely stop players form playing that way". It's about promoting "fairness" among gaming styles.

As an easy-to-understand, concrete example, take the idea of 0 AP speech. If ALL speech was 0 AP, then role-playing and emoting would rule the day and pages could become endless walls of RP spam. When all speech is 1 AP, people tend to weigh the "cost" of role-playing against the cost of actually advancing a character's other goals (and role-playing loses out). By granting a limited number of 0 AP speech actions, those who wish to role-play are free to do so without resulting in text walls of role-playing and while allowing them to still conduct "normal" business.

5. Except for the obvious "that's a bug, don't exploit it because it's not working the way it is intended" and "don't multi-abuse/alt-abuse" I generally dislike telling players, "no, you can't play the game that way."

Restrictions breed creativity. I put certain restrictions into the game, and players will find creative ways of working around them. I expect that. (Example: the morality system). As long as bugs aren't being exploited, that's fine with me (and sometimes the way you all find ways around the restrictions is pleasantly surprising and/or amusing).

However, I'm shooting for "fairness" on a meta-scale. That doesn't mean I'm "favoring a particular style of play" - it means I'm trying to "fairly balance" the viability of all styles. If one style of play threatens to make all other styles unviable, expect that style to see mechanical dampers - not to close it down entirely, but to keep it from dominating all other styles. Similarly, if one style is unviable and I think it is a legitimate style of play, expect subtle boosts to it (example: Feral guild bonuses are there to give ferals unique benefits not available to factioned characters, giving an incentive for some feral play - but not so overwhelmingly that factions are emptied).

This concept - shooting for "equal viability of styles of play" (which does NOT mean all styles should yield equal XP, but rather that your chosen style of play should neither make impossible nor be made impossible by other styles of play) is one of the ways in which the rules of the game have evolved and will continue to evolve.

TL;DR: There's no single "right way" to play the game, and I do feel the need to tweak the rules from time to time to make sure as many "right ways" as possible remain viable, while trying not to let one style dominate all others.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 1:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I heal at the knob and while I wish the damage farming did not go on I do so because because they have 4 liches and 2 sorcerers on the staff alone.

The faction my character is in, Convent of Nuns has no sorcerers at all as of writing this and we are also their allies. I do not see why I should not be able to heal their sorcerers for experience as is done in more conventional factions.

While heal farming may be unpalatable to some purists my allies in the knob plainly need it for generating their lich pet detterent.
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ChesterKatz
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 2:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can understand the "different ways to play" concept, but the "RP-only" area currently still has a direct impact on the overall world of the Nexus. As long as it's possible to sit in an RP-only tile and regenerate AP, MP, and HP which can then be used in the broader world, then the one world does impact the other.

If the faction upgrade were to also remove the ability to gain AP, MP, and HP while in the square, then we'd be on the right track.
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Hungerer
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 3:18 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I now have serious issue with the in game protest against the oaken knob.

My issue is this: The Oaken has as a focus in-character role-play. Making an OOC protest as your reason to kill the knob is a targeted way to grief the people who are there to role play and will make little or no difference to the people that are there to grind and/or stage.

I have serious issue with anyone who breaks the fourth wall for this reason. If your purpose is to ruin other people's fun, and this gets you your kicks, congratulations. You have won.

Sure, break the fourth wall because its silly or fun, or to make a joke or even mess with someone a bit. But break the fourth wall to protest a perceived way that the game is being run... or a ruleset.. and target the people that are there to roleplay? That's just reprehensible.

Sure kill at the knob because you don't like pubs. Or because you are evil. Or because you like to kill people standing around. But don't make an ooc point.

You want to protest about something - that's what forums are for.
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Maid
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What I find most telling is that every one of these people 'protest killing' or whatever didn't give a damn about the knob until Shadok screwed up and tried to grant it admin protection.

I can understand being upset about a faction gaining admin protection, but that protection has been clearly rescinded, but, now that it is over, and the knob is back to normal, people are still showing up because /NOW/ it is too much to bare.

No, this is hypocrisy at its finest. They have now realized how much exp they can get out of the knob due to the legitimate outcry over Shadok's actions, and now that it's over, they are attempting to justify their "farming" of kills and stats by dressing it up in fancy "I'm killing you for going against the spirit of the game!" words. Thing is, as Bob just posted, they're not.

And the people who really did take issue with it, did so long before Shadok did his thing.

You want to show up and kill the people farming there? Sure, that's part of the game. You want to kill roleplayers? Yes, that's also part of the game. But don't try and dress it up with lies to try and justify doing so, particularly when you don't need to justify it in the first place.
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fluffymasterchief
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Maid wrote:
What I find most telling is that every one of these people 'protest killing' or whatever didn't give a damn about the knob until Shadok screwed up and tried to grant it admin protection.

I can understand being upset about a faction gaining admin protection, but that protection has been clearly rescinded, but, now that it is over, and the knob is back to normal, people are still showing up because /NOW/ it is too much to bare.

No, this is hypocrisy at its finest. They have now realized how much exp they can get out of the knob due to the legitimate outcry over Shadok's actions, and now that it's over, they are attempting to justify their "farming" of kills and stats by dressing it up in fancy "I'm killing you for going against the spirit of the game!" words. Thing is, as Bob just posted, they're not.

And the people who really did take issue with it, did so long before Shadok did his thing.

You want to show up and kill the people farming there? Sure, that's part of the game. You want to kill roleplayers? Yes, that's also part of the game. But don't try and dress it up with lies to try and justify doing so, particularly when you don't need to justify it in the first place.
Can't speak for every protest killers out there but I was unaware of the XP farm that was going on and how severe it was until Admin protection happened. And before it did, I did kill inside knob but went mostly after adamant kinship or feral demons for being all un-demon-y but that was just me putting on an asshole hat and playing it out. Feel free to call me out on that if you want to.

Admin protection is gone but the problem protesters perceive still exists. Free safe house, attacking someone close to death and healing them or whatever. And more people are aware of it now than before. Whether this is an acceptable part of playing the game or not is a separate discussion. (Just to let you know, I'm leaning on acceptable. It's OK to engage on farming or whatnot as long as no one bitches about dying in Knob. But I have to admit that potential for abuse or gaming the system is too great here.)

Now I kill purely because I can. I also maxxed out so I'm not even going after the XP. I do gain stats for kills but I don't care even if admins reset it to zero. So that's where I am. Feel free to burn me if you'd like.


Edit - Replaced using Shadok as a reference point for what is a group decision among devs. You can why in Tek's post below.

Sorry Shad


Last edited by fluffymasterchief on Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:24 pm; edited 2 times in total
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 8:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Can we stop using Shadok as a synonym for a joint decision made by the 3 most active members of the dev team? It isn't right to single him out like that.
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