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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Reduce the portal cost of the Terra Nullis portal
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Reduce the portal cost of the Terra Nullis portal

 
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Fellis
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:16 pm    Post subject: Reduce the portal cost of the Terra Nullis portal Reply with quote

There's been some recent discussion on the Nexus Clash discord about The Mages Council and advantages that they have from being in Terra Nullis.

Pros:
1. difficult to get to (even with the map) makes recapping, much less raiding very difficult
2. costs a lot of ap to use the portal (15 ap for the last step alone)
3. Mages themselves don't pay portals costs because of bending when the SH is up
4. also you need swim/water-breathing (spell or potion), heh gotcha!

Cons:
1. almost no grinds or anything to do in TN means a great disadvantage to staying home for Mages
2. Mages have their own travel costs to leave

I'm sure there's more than just the above, and there are certainly ways to mitigate the travel costs which is a big part of the discussion. I personally think that the cost to get into TN should be reduced to at least what it costs to leave (5ap/10mp and subject to opal discounts) and possibly a little more since you have to go through a random part of Stygia and the maze.

I know this is probably not gonna be a thing in B5, but this seems a minor change to throw in the next interim update
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Thu Oct 01, 2020 11:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for making this!

In terms of passive defence, it's by far the best location in the game, offering a ~40 AP travel time from Laurentia for most classes compared to a rough maximum of ~15 for the next-most remote location (probably Reflection's End in Shehaqim, Elysium or the Stone Hut in the Lake of Fire in Tartarus, Stygia). Travel time is very difficult and not very fun to deal with as apart from a tonne of Glyphs (relatively minor, even with Glyph Mastery) they're the only thing that applies fully to everyone, even if they're just going to recap.

Technically factions can be evicted from their preferred location, but it's not simple to do after an old patch that stopped factions revoking their stronghold for 24 hours after capturing a standard. Apart from the extra AP attrition of founding a stronghold combined with the travel time, this means it's impossible to evict someone from their location without a multi-clan raid, whether it's an allied faction who takes the standard or a proxy temporary faction created by the evicting faction.

That... kind of makes it even more meta-fuffy than it would be otherwise. Personally, I really think that it's a good thing for the game that evicting factions is considered very poor form, as reclaiming your spot after being evicted is just as much of an uphill battle for the evicted faction because they suffer from the same mechanics. We shouldn't accept that the location can viably be competed over because it's not easy to compete over it, and if it was, it'd make for some extremely frustrating Clash gameplay.

Now, you can stage with Extended Invisibility potions in Nullius, but apart from the fact that you have to leave your SH in advance, thus leaving it super-vulnerable and co-ordinate well in advance, it's still paying much more AP to succeed in chewing through the 1500 structures (or at least 1000 ward) and complete the raid. Additionally, Nullius is a small enough plane that it's viable for a Bat Revenant to patrol the entire plane and kill any invisible raid-hopefuls (this has actually happened before).

It's also very true that it's pretty frustrating for Mages to have their SH there oftentimes, as even though they can get out for similar costs as getting into Shehaqim or East Tartarus, there really is nothing to do or grind over time in Nullius, so they basically have to leave in order to get anything at all done.

I think balance on this should lean towards making the location more in line with a regular 'remote SH' such as East Tartarus, rather than punishing Mages (or whoever occupies Tower of Exile, Nullius) for having their remote location in the first place. I know JavaElemental mentioned removing the ability to portal bend when SH is up to Terra Nulllius, which admittedly was probably unintended, but I genuinely believe that would make the SH incredibly un-fun to even use for most of the characters it belongs to.

It's late in the Breath and Nullius and The Wyrm's Lair are pretty much 'solved', so I think most of the imbalance could be corrected by reducing 'swimming out of the wreckage' to 1 AP and ideally the portal on the way as well. This would still make it the most remote SH in the game by a decent margin (rough calcs say it would be about 22 AP for an Eternal Soldier-like class), but much more viable to attack with expected normal raid party sizes so long as they have solid AP. Alternatively, capturing standards (and possibly being captured) with a Nullius SH could be made impossible, although you could make an argument that while this still gives them most of the freedom to attack people without sticking those they do attack with an awful recap job, it could lead to an AK Squad-esque situation (not saying Mages would, just saying it's possible) where it's easy to attack people just for the kills and then yeet to where it's extremely hard to have valid recourse against.

Either way. something that should also be fixed is that it doesn't actually tell you the plane where they are when you get capped. Most people know they're there, but the (11, 11, ) that displays is quite weird.

I'm not into or trying to purport changes which forcibly regulates the (rule-abiding) gameplay of factions. But acknowledging that it's the best location by far for faction vs. faction on the basis that it can be overtaken by other factions might have precedent in old Breaths, but eviction from SH locations hasn't been relevant in years and honestly, this was a good change culturally and in gameplay. It making a return would honestly probably cause a lot of argumenmts. I'm also not into booting Mages out of Nullius because 'it's too good', since I do think the Nullius SH is a cool selling point for the faction.

All that really needs to be done is for the Nullius SH to require less of the additional preparation and AP that no other faction in the game requires to raid simply for it being there. For me that mostly means just cutting the travel costs significantly, and conveniently there's one 15 AP 'portal' plus another pretty expensive portal on the way to drop AP costs from. And I suppose while we're there it'd be nice to make the Andrea Vendetta below-decks tile not require Swim/Water-Breathing to see (nerfing Swim, it's just too good, oh my Tiamat!), since technically that does confuse the heck out of people!
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CrusaderDroid
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 3:45 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This whole thing is disingenuous since it came about as a way to retaliate at a faction that, in turn, retaliated for a scummy play. Kandarin mentioned in the past that they'd fix it if it was being abused. I don't think TMC have abused it, and I don't think fighting back in the place of a faction that literally can't fight back is abusing it.

There's already ways to get around this, i.e. portal Conduits, and there's apparently been successful raids in the past against TMC in their location, too. Maybe instead of changing everything else first, it would be better to look for allies instead and appeal to them. Might be difficult if you've already made enemies out of almost everyone, but that's the risk you take in a small community with a handful of players when you take actions to antagonize them.
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

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Fellis
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrusaderDroid wrote:
This whole thing is disingenuous since it came about as a way to retaliate at a faction that, in turn, retaliated for a scummy play. Kandarin mentioned in the past that they'd fix it if it was being abused. I don't think TMC have abused it, and I don't think fighting back in the place of a faction that literally can't fight back is abusing it.

There's already ways to get around this, i.e. portal Conduits, and there's apparently been successful raids in the past against TMC in their location, too. Maybe instead of changing everything else first, it would be better to look for allies instead and appeal to them. Might be difficult if you've already made enemies out of almost everyone, but that's the risk you take in a small community with a handful of players when you take actions to antagonize them.


It's not disingenuous, it's a legitimate complaint. It doesn't matter what caused the topic to come up, if the topic is valid. I'm not sure if "I know it when I see it" policing is a great way to deal with this, and as a member of the faction, I'm probably going to advocate us not taking flags till a change is made. That obviously takes some fun out of it for us as well.

I understand you are frustrated with with how you got raided, but if you want to hash the actions and politics in another thread that's probably better. Leave this one for this topic.
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Lychwood
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2020 10:51 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah that entry portal cost is pretty steep, seems fair to discount it.
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sohdbrimks
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Keep the portal costs, but disable bending to that plane. If someone wants a remote SH there should be a drawback.
iirc, in NW people could respawn within 10 blocks of their SH, unless the SH was in a non-respawn place (ie, too remote). It would be the same principle here.
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