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Fallen Mini-Rework

 
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 3:08 am    Post subject: Fallen Mini-Rework Reply with quote

Fallen's a pretty unpopular class. While with enough time, Fallen could do with polishing particularly in respects to the T2 betrayal process (as with Redeemed) - to be honest, all of the core aspects of the class except for current Charade of Redemption are more than workable, with free reloads and Shadowskulk Hellfires actually being really cool selling points for the class. A smaller set of Infernal Behemoth-esque changes could be done quickly and would breathe life into the class, rather than leaving it in limbo until there's time for a complete rework.

Fallen's problems can basically be summarised with:
- They only have one role they can fulfill at all, raid attacker.
- Fallen's stats are very undertuned and unreliable for a raid attacker.
- Fallen has a rough 'lone wolf' theme, but without great equipment all it can do is do things very quietly and slowly while Shadow Melding through nights, which is pretty uninteractive.

These problems could be alleviated a lot by making them more solid in their raid attacker role, then giving them a bit more utility for themselves and for factioned play, so that they have good ways to spend AP in downtime. But it's also important for this utility to encourage them to be proactive, rather than purely using Shadow Meld, turning pacifist, and essentially becoming nonexistent ingame.



Skill Changes

Abiding Hate: +1 damage. +1 more damage against Angels.

Charade of Redemption: Remove the mechanic of displaying Fallen under Charade as a factionmate.
New mechanic - if Fallen is successfully hit by a Good character, -5 status ticks.
Extra effects - while Charade of Redemption active, +20% search rate in Elysium only. While the Fallen is on a tile with an Angel, +2 Soak, +10% Def.

Charade showing you as factioned has never fooled anyone, and if it did, it'd kind of be a problem. The new tick-down mechanic is because it now gives actual relevant buffs, but also because Dark Trick causes extreme MO damage to classes that actually need to keep it. Having the full Charade tree should put a lot of CP strain on Fallen though, regardless.

Masquerade of Deception: Extra effects - while the Fallen is on a tile with an Angel, +2 damage, +5% accuracy, each successful hit grants the Fallen 1 MP.

Oath of Steel: Extra effect - Firearms attacks +3 damage to structures.

Note: This was a 30/08 edit, it was originally +2. Since Fallen's so sub-par at structures by default, I think it needed another extra point to make it so Gun Fallen would actually want to do them.

Plague of Doubt: Reworked. Casted - 3 AP, 7 MP. Inflicts all Good characters in the area with ‘Plagued with Doubt’ for 5 status ticks (unstackable), which inflicts -10% def. If a target suffering from Plagued with Doubt is hit by a character’s attack, they take (their MO/10, rounded-up) supplemental unholy damage.

Old Plague of Doubt had a very complicated yet niche effect, which was also basically a degenerate skill in the situations it worked well (one-ticking tanks while they're aura'ing, or clearing over full forts with pets). This fits nicely lore-wise by being a skill to literally sow discord across a stronghold, while also being a really solid raid support ability for Good factions.

Shadowskulk: +20% hide chance, +3 damage with surprise attacks.

Shadow Meld: Extra effect - Upon successfully hitting a character with a close-quarters attack, 10% chance to gain Shadowskulking status.

Melee has a slight edge over Firearms on Fallen currently, this combined with Oath of Steel makes Firearms clearly better for straight blasting at structures and people, whereas Melee is better at single-target nuking.

Profane Genetics (New Skill, 30 CP): Grants the Fallen a Blood Sample Phial in their inventory (0 weight, undroppable, starts with 0 charges). Blood Sample Phial gains 1 charge per kill of a character, or 2 charges instead per kill of an angel. When Blood Sample Phial has 10 charges, Fallen can use it, consuming the charges to create 3 potions of any type (their choice) for 1 AP, but take 21-40 unsoakable damage.

Lore-wise, Fallen use abhorrent experimentation to maintain and improve their forms, but only Bond of Mechanical turning their flesh into ammunition really represents this. Profane Genetics gives Fallen utility which encourages them to go into enemy territory, kill, or raid, which all leaves them more at risk of retaliation. This also improves their lone wolf abilities as they can slowly supply themselves with much-needed potions.


Last edited by Alyss on Sat Aug 29, 2020 5:42 pm; edited 1 time in total
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iButt
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 11:50 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I actually had an idea very similar to Profane Genetics, for Hunters in general. I think the general feel is a very good idea, that Hunters can roam for raid-useful goods.

There might be abuse in that people agree to have a Mortal in a loose slot repeatedly suicide themselves for someone to farm PG, though. Unsure if its serious enough of an issue, but I figured I'd point it out.
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Thu Aug 27, 2020 2:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks for looking over it! Yeah, I agree that even though I was more thinking of Fallen as a raider than a hunter here (but you can always pick-up some easy kills on the side); in terms of factioned play, Divine Herald for example going-out and sniping a load of demons doesn't really have any practical benefit for the faction beyond a bit of renown. Revenant gets a better deal because of Day Walker searches and Eye of Death being a soft raid-deterrent, but Fallen's definitely not the only class which really struggles to do anything except clicking attack better than a Mortal can, and you really can't attack things that're useful to attack every single day in the game.

Farming Profane Genetics is definitely a good point to bring-up, like you say I believe it'd be AP-inefficient and fiddly enough purely for getting the 3 potions that people wouldn't be too bothered to use it like that, but if that was a worry I think either of these additions could fix it:

- If killing the same character twice in a row, do not gain a blood sample(s) from it.
- When a character dies to a Fallen with Profane Genetics, they gain a hidden status that persists through death (like Hunted By), 'Blood Drained' for 24 hours. The Fallen cannot gain any blood samples when killing Blood Drained characters.

The latter's quite a bit more restrictive than the former of course but still should barely ever come up in standard gameplay (against active raid defenders or attackers who respawn and come back, most likely?), so long as the Fallen's roaming around, so it'd be fine really. Again, I don't think people would be likely to set that up for the amount of free potions you get, but it's also good to discourage campy gameplay either way, hehe.
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Badziew
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 11:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Alyss wrote:
- If killing the same character twice in a row, do not gain a blood sample(s) from it.

This can be easily bypassed by cycling over a pool of victims (kill A => kill B => kill A => kill B => etc).

Alyss wrote:
- When a character dies to a Fallen with Profane Genetics, they gain a hidden status that persists through death (like Hunted By), 'Blood Drained' for 24 hours. The Fallen cannot gain any blood samples when killing Blood Drained characters.

This sounds moderately better, but I think 24h is still too low to discourage.
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 1:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I really think anything beyond the latter addition would be an over-reaction, it's just 3 potions per ~10 kills. I don't think anything in the entire game has longer than a 24 hour lock on it. Honestly, if someone's doing something that's over the line in say, farming their friends, that's an issue of dodgy tactics, not really the mechanics of the skill itself.
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Nayru
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

easy way to filter 'too efficient'/'too much mortal bapping' is having it be >mortal blood anyway (t2+)

best case scenario is lv10 angel's 5x5 ap respawns + all the travel-less movement, wouldn't be.. particularly.... efficient
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Haweh
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nayru's suggestion seems like a good solution for it.

I think that the potion utility is fine as long as it remains less AP efficient than alchemy; and paired with some kind of anti-abuse mechanic.

It would give Fallen a nice little unique mechanic that makes it a bit more of a self sufficient class, which can be used as a minor faction support (reduces logistical strain) or as a means to gain potions as a feral.

I think it might be interesting to allow for random potions if you popped the Blood Sample Phial early (or lowered the kill requirement and made it random only). Thematically, that would play into the "body experimentation" theme as well.
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Alyss
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PostPosted: Fri Aug 28, 2020 9:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, it wasn't designed as a replacement for alchemy support (except for super ascetic playstyles), but I also wanted it to be a pretty relevant bonus because it would be Fallen's main form of general utility. Haha, I did consider putting Fallen's Elysium +searchrate up to 30%, but I thought I'd better not push my luck! So, like with Plague of Doubt, given that they're 30 CP on a class that actually does have moderate CP problems, I wanted them to be meaningful semi-support skills without them overriding what the class did well to begin with.

Anyways, it's funny you should mention random potions - my first idea for Profane Genetics was to make it brew 6 potions of random types for the same cost, but ultimately I thought that'd be pretty likely to lead to a lot of frustrating '2x Water Breathing 2x Flying 2x Planar Protection' scenarios, or most of all just be really bad for feral Fallen. However, maybe you could do something like this for Profane Genetics...

- Still consumes 10 charges.
- For 10 charges (and the damage taken after), either
Perfect Creation: Create 3 potions of a type of your choosing.
OR
Wild Experimentation: Create 2 random 'Affinity'-type potions, 2 random GI/I/LI OR Magic Recovery/Healing/Regeneration potions, and 2 random miscellaneous potions (any of the rest, except Wyrm Bile of course).

I think this'd be a really cool variation of the effect, as the first option would be obviously great for ferals (who'd mostly only want one of about 4-5 kinds of potions anyways), but also for getting missing potions in the safe in case of emergencies. But in general the second option could be really good for factioned play, since it gives the Fallen amazing value (...most of the time), and they can distribute the potions to whoever they'd help the most.

To be clear though - I think it'd be really cool to have an extra choice like this with Profane Genetics, but one of the original points of my post was to suggest a few things which'd (hopefully) be easily-coded to make the class decent and interesting rather than its current janky self. So if I were to suggest a fairly elaborate new skill, even if it'd still be nowhere near as complex as Feeding Fangs or Prayer, it'd kinda contradict me there. I'll still mention it for posterity though!


P.S: I don't really have an opinion either way on Profane Genetics x Mortal-bapping. Most other classes and skills (Eye of Death, Desecration, Infectious Blade etc.) don't generally compel you to go after a better class of target for their effects, so it'd be a bit unusual, but honestly I think this mini-rework is a solid buff for its raiding (especially against or potentially with Goods)... yet when it comes to hunting, it's basically the same as before, it still has a pretty lousy +4 base damage to work with and no skills which particularly help them hunt.

I couldn't see it being too much of an issue for fast grinding, but it wouldn't matter much either way since most of your charges would probably come from raids. So with or without the restriction should be fine, and I agree it's probably the simplest way to discourage library camping for pots haha.
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 04, 2021 1:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Fallen is almost completely a new class in B5.

Profane Genetics kinda exists also, but it's a Doom Howler ability, not a Fallen ability.
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