Nexus Clash

Login

Nickname

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one. Registered players can create up to three free characters to battle, team up with your friends and explore the worlds of the Nexus! To create a character once you have registered, click on Game Map at the top of the page.
Nexus Clash :: View topic - More Gameplay Feedback
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

More Gameplay Feedback

 
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Implemented Suggestions
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
JavaElemental
Mortal
Mortal


Joined: Mar 09, 2015
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 1:04 pm    Post subject: More Gameplay Feedback Reply with quote

There are a few instances in this game where the lack of information the game gives you is a huge hindrance to what should be an easy task.

Chief among these are Glyph duration and enchantments.

For Glyph setters, carefully balancing their mp against glyph duration is hindered by the fact that glyphs don't tell you how many ticks they have left before they wear off. You already have to devote a significant portion of your build to even be able to out regen the mp requirements of a single glyph, requiring constant checking in to spend mp as you gain it and not wasting it to having a full bar to pull off. Adding keeping track of how many times you've cast the glyph compared to how much time has passed seems unnecessary, especially since a comparable activity, maintaining buffs on yourself, does give you the info of how long each buff has before it expires.

For enchantments, let's be honest: Nearly everyone uses them. However, only four classes in the game can tell what enchantments an item has, and one of them has to bite one of the other three to pull that off. This makes it far more difficult than it has to be to tell when it's time to hand your gun to the local conduit for a tune up. This is made all the more baffling by the existence of the sense magic skill, and how it lets you tell the exact properties of a potion whether you're an alchemist or not. I think most would agree that needing to be an alchemist to be able to identify potions would hurt the game overall, and yet that is how it is for enchantments.

I would argue for letting sense magic, or at the very least a child skill of it, to allow the bearer to identify the enchantments on an item. I'd even argue for it letting you tell what spells are in gems, letting you know which are worth saving for the faction safe and which aren't. But at the very least, being able to discern how many enchantments are on an item would allow non-enchanters to tell when it's time for maintenance. You don't need to take the crafting trees to tell how damaged your weapons are, after all.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Carilgar
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: May 17, 2014
Posts: 349

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 9:26 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

^^ This.
_________________
Carilgar (7989) | Seldara (7990) | Nightfire (7991) | Stormshadow (8049) | A Pair of Doorknocking Mormons (8050) | Chianni (8051) | Koldar (11873) | Themys (12088) | Selaedria (12395)
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kandarin
Dreamweaver
Dreamweaver


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 2221
Location: Charlotte's Bakery University

PostPosted: Tue May 12, 2020 11:05 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I've coded in a change that implements the first request on devside. In the next round of game changes, this will make visible the duration not only of glyphs but of all "Local" status effects, including such things as Dark Oppressor Auras, Arcane Wells/Sinks, and Burning Incense.

The second request is linked to a lot of issues at once and probably doesn't have as quick or easy an answer as the first one.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobGeneric
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: Nov 07, 2009
Posts: 1779

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 8:45 am    Post subject: Re: More Gameplay Feedback Reply with quote

JavaElemental wrote:
There are a few instances in this game where the lack of information the game gives you is a huge hindrance to what should be an easy task.
...
For enchantments, let's be honest: Nearly everyone uses them. However, only four classes in the game can tell what enchantments an item has, and one of them has to bite one of the other three to pull that off. This makes it far more difficult than it has to be to tell when it's time to hand your gun to the local conduit for a tune up. This is made all the more baffling by the existence of the sense magic skill, and how it lets you tell the exact properties of a potion whether you're an alchemist or not. I think most would agree that needing to be an alchemist to be able to identify potions would hurt the game overall, and yet that is how it is for enchantments.

I would argue for letting sense magic, or at the very least a child skill of it, to allow the bearer to identify the enchantments on an item. I'd even argue for it letting you tell what spells are in gems, letting you know which are worth saving for the faction safe and which aren't. But at the very least, being able to discern how many enchantments are on an item would allow non-enchanters to tell when it's time for maintenance. You don't need to take the crafting trees to tell how damaged your weapons are, after all.

One of the important mechanical spaces in a game is "fog of war" or "lack of information" - if perfect information about everything is always available, there is very little room for tactics (which usually rely on having resources available your enemy does not know about). It is one of the reasons why, for example, the only person that ever knows how many AP you have available will be you. However, there is also a "convenience of gameplay" aspect that needs to be taken into consideration.

"Sense Magic" is supposed to be what it says on the tin - the ability to perceive that magic exists and in some cases get a general indication of its strength. A skill that gave you full information on all things magical, all of the time, would be a lot more than a 10 CP skill - while a 10 CP skill might enhance the gameplay experience, it should be quite possible to enjoy the vast majority of the game without having to purchase a 10 CP skill. For example, it is perfectly possible to enjoy the majority of gameplay without the First Aid skill (though it sure is nice to see your foes' exact HP) or the Sense Morality skill (which most people seem to think is the "angel tax" skill), but not impossible (you can work mostly off of health bars to pick targets closer to death in lieu of relying on First Aid, or a deliberate angel combatant can look after one swing whether their morality drops so they don't HAVE to buy Sense Morality, though it makes targeting easier).

For example, Sense Magic allows you to sense that a gem is imbued with magic and gives you a sense of how much magic is in the gem (number of charges). However, to understand what spell is contained within the gem requires a deeper knowledge of exactly how spells and gems work (which we call the skill "Spellcraft"). This is why the rare caster who has Spellcraft and not Sense Magic can sense what spell is contained within a gem but not the number of charges. https://wiki.nexuscla.sh/wiki/index.php?title=Spellgems

Most of the time, Sense Magic does give you specific information about "static" items. Exact MP costs for portals, for instance, are given because after a short round of experimentation, these can be found and published elsewhere. Potions, similarly, could be labelled once and then forgotten about - a potion is a one-use item of fixed power, rather than an enchanted item which is a multi-use item whose power wanes the more it is used. (It should be noted that discussion within the dev team has come up about allowing brewed potions to have "labels" on them that can identify them to even non-Sense Magic users). For the convenience of gameplay these are provided inline to those with Sense Magic because these items are static.

While most players have become accustomed to cruising around with enchanted gear all of the time, enchanted gear is NOT static - it can be used up, it loses enchantments when it degrades, etc. Because they are not static items, Sense Magic is not intended to allow you full access to information about your enchanted gear - understanding exactly how enchantments work is, like Spellcraft and spellgems, limited to those that have studied it (i.e., have the Enchant Item skill).

There probably is an argument to be made to let Sense Magic allow the bearer to identify the number of enchantments on an item, since that is a relative measure of power similar to the number of charges in a spellgem. However, seeing exactly which enchantments those are should not be within the purview of Sense Magic for the reasons outlined above.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
BobGeneric
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: Nov 07, 2009
Posts: 1779

PostPosted: Wed May 13, 2020 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more quick thought on Enchantments and Sense Magic - in general, the design philosophy is that you should be given information when you NEED to know in order to effectively use your skills - just WANTING to know information isn't a good enough reason to provide it.

A healer NEEDS to know exact HP totals to best utilize a First Aid Kit (so that it can be directed at the target that will receive 10 HP of healing, not just 1).

A caster (with Spellcraft) NEEDS to know what spell will be triggered when they use a spellgem so they can target it properly - or more importantly, decide if they want to spend CP to learn it. A non-caster might WANT to know to decide whether to pitch it or take it back to the safe but doesn't NEED to know to use his/her skills.

An Enchanter NEEDS to know what enchants are on an item in order to know how much MP is required to layer on the next enchant - and also needs the info in order to avoid trying to put a 7th fire enchant on a weapon, for example. Someone using the weapon might WANT to know what's on the weapon, but the character's combat skills don't NEED that information to attack with the weapon.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
JavaElemental
Mortal
Mortal


Joined: Mar 09, 2015
Posts: 30

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 1:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

But they do NEED to know in order to tell when the item needs to be re-enchanted, which does affect your performance with it.

You don't NEED to know if your bow is pristine to attack someone with it, should you only be able to tell weapon or armor condition if you have the relevant repair skill?

You don't NEED to know how much mp other people have unless your class interacts with it in some way, such as one of the mp draining skills. Should that be removed from sense magic and moved to those skills?

You don't NEED to know what kind of alchemy component you just found unless you can do alchemy or can craft things, should you just find "an unidentifiable component" unless you have the repair tree or alchemy?

You don't NEED to know who that person you just stumbled upon is named in order to shoot them. Should there be a skill that lets you identify faces, otherwise you just see "a mortal" or "a conduit" unless you're in the same faction?

All I can really say is I wholeheartedly disagree with that design philosophy, and I hope I've demonstrated that it's been ignored in cases where gameplay convenience and common sense would be violated otherwise. It's not like I'm asking something for nothing here, either. Sense magic is a ubiquitous skill, yes, but it is still a skill. It could be given to a child skill for it if that's deemed more acceptable too.

And like I said, simple number of enchantments remaining would be enough for what non enchanters would care to know about their gear.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
plscks
Developer
Developer


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 237
Location: USA - CST

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 5:38 am    Post subject: Re: More Gameplay Feedback Reply with quote

JavaElemental wrote:
There are a few instances in this game where the lack of information the game gives you is a huge hindrance to what should be an easy task.

Chief among these are Glyph duration and enchantments.

For Glyph setters, carefully balancing their mp against glyph duration is hindered by the fact that glyphs don't tell you how many ticks they have left before they wear off.

I think the glyph not displaying the duration is a bonus. That is nearly the entirety of the benefit of the glyphs as a defense. A raid team without GGE has to pick their targets carefully and a faction with glyphs up is often a hard stop. If you put duration on there, then it kind of removes the effect, in that case when they get there they can see 'oh the glyph will wear off in 25 minutes let's regroup and hit them then.' As pointed out it is a big expenditure of resources to keep glyphs up, use glyphs, and learn them in the first place, it really takes away the edge of the advantage by giving this information out readily to any passer-by. On a side note, glyphs last 2.5 hours (150 minutes), so if the caster is putting that much effort into balancing mp/ap then they must be able to figure a static duration of a glyph into the equation.

JavaElemental wrote:
For enchantments, let's be honest: Nearly everyone uses them. However, only four classes in the game can tell what enchantments an item has, and one of them has to bite one of the other three to pull that off. This makes it far more difficult than it has to be to tell when it's time to hand your gun to the local conduit for a tune up.
Sure everyone uses enchantments, but really it's not that much trouble to know when you need to have your stuff touched up. If you know you do 12 damage with that enchanted shovel and you're only doing 10 well that is the indication to get it topped up. Or if you're soaking 3 acid damage then it is probably time to get your acid boots topped up.
_________________
"Hey, don't talk about bacon." - Frank Lapidus

plscks-20 | Davington-25 | James Ford-26 | Wiggles-1297 | Desmond-1298 | Richard Feynman-2769 | a random janitor-2772 | Kaz-12345 | Advocado-12867
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Yukari
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Mar 24, 2012
Posts: 463

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 9:18 am    Post subject: Re: More Gameplay Feedback Reply with quote

plscks wrote:
I think the glyph not displaying the duration is a bonus. That is nearly the entirety of the benefit of the glyphs as a defense. A raid team without GGE has to pick their targets carefully and a faction with glyphs up is often a hard stop. If you put duration on there, then it kind of removes the effect, in that case when they get there they can see 'oh the glyph will wear off in 25 minutes let's regroup and hit them then.' As pointed out it is a big expenditure of resources to keep glyphs up, use glyphs, and learn them in the first place, it really takes away the edge of the advantage by giving this information out readily to any passer-by. On a side note, glyphs last 2.5 hours (150 minutes), so if the caster is putting that much effort into balancing mp/ap then they must be able to figure a static duration of a glyph into the equation.

I agree with this logic. How's this for compromise, though: Could it be that as a quality-of-life thing it lets you know the duration of glyphs you cast (and maybe also faction mates)? If you see them casting it you already know when it is going to wear off, but there's people like me who are dense with maths :P

I'm with you on enchantments. It requires careful observation, but most of the information is already there. I think durability is the only one that doesn't give any kind of feedback.
edit: also as a kind of tip on this topic, when I am unsure if one of my items has lost enchantments recently, I open my log and ctrl-f "enchantment" to find the dissipation prompts. It tells you the item *and* the enchantment type that wore off.
_________________
Tanks for everything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Badziew
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: May 18, 2017
Posts: 202

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 10:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Personally I am more interested in types of enchantments that are present on my gear, than in details of how many layers or charges of each one are present.

I understand that Sense Magic is intended to be just a vague feeling "there is some magic here", but the skill already allows to distinguish the "flavour" of magic in case of portals ("that door smells stygian to me..."), so perhaps similar inaccurate effect could be applied to enchanted items too? Maybe the character could be able to sense the strongest enchantment (the one with the most stacks), without detecting the weaker ones? Or maybe just the top layer, without realising there are other enchantments below it?

I agree with the argument that Sense Magic may be too cheap CP-wise for its upgraded effect, but that can easily be solved by splitting it into a skill tree, similar to Alchemy + Alchemical Transmutation pair.
_________________
My characters and random trivia: https://wiki.nexuscla.sh/wiki/index.php?title=User:Badziew
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
plscks
Developer
Developer


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 237
Location: USA - CST

PostPosted: Thu May 14, 2020 10:33 am    Post subject: Re: More Gameplay Feedback Reply with quote

Yukari wrote:
I agree with this logic. How's this for compromise, though: Could it be that as a quality-of-life thing it lets you know the duration of glyphs you cast (and maybe also faction mates)? If you see them casting it you already know when it is going to wear off, but there's people like me who are dense with maths Razz

I'm with you on enchantments. It requires careful observation, but most of the information is already there. I think durability is the only one that doesn't give any kind of feedback.
edit: also as a kind of tip on this topic, when I am unsure if one of my items has lost enchantments recently, I open my log and ctrl-f "enchantment" to find the dissipation prompts. It tells you the item *and* the enchantment type that wore off.
Yeah, letting this information be available to the caster and the caster's faction is a great idea, helpful in many situations to the caster and also to say, a factionmate with MO that is temporarily out of faction alignment.

I suppose on the flip side of the enchantment topic, should this information be made available since you can already infer it from observation and notes? It would cut out the tedious parts of keeping track, which is more or less the idea behind quality of life type changes.

Badziew wrote:
I understand that Sense Magic is intended to be just a vague feeling "there is some magic here", but the skill already allows to distinguish the "flavour" of magic in case of portals ("that door smells stygian to me..."), so perhaps similar inaccurate effect could be applied to enchanted items too? Maybe the character could be able to sense the strongest enchantment (the one with the most stacks), without detecting the weaker ones? Or maybe just the top layer, without realising there are other enchantments below it?
I like this idea as well, having a vague sense of what the enchantment would be helpful, but not so accurate that it negates the Enchant Item skill completely (aside from the actual enchanting of course).

Anything more than this however really starts to become a game balance type of thing that maybe should be taken into account in future breaths.
_________________
"Hey, don't talk about bacon." - Frank Lapidus

plscks-20 | Davington-25 | James Ford-26 | Wiggles-1297 | Desmond-1298 | Richard Feynman-2769 | a random janitor-2772 | Kaz-12345 | Advocado-12867
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Display posts from previous:   
This forum is locked: you cannot post, reply to, or edit topics.   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Implemented Suggestions All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Forums ©
Credit: Site homepage artwork (C) 2017 Acaisha Buffo
Character creation and raid ticker icons by Lorc and Delapouite at game-icons.net
Original Nexus War classes, powers, and lore copyright 2003 - 2021 Brandon Harris (bharris@gaijin.com) used with permission.
PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.