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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Removal of crafting upgrade in faction strongholds
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Removal of crafting upgrade in faction strongholds

 
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Edith
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 01, 2018 10:21 pm    Post subject: Removal of crafting upgrade in faction strongholds Reply with quote

Faction gunbenches, forges and medbays are ruining the game. We have gone back to small faction farming and the change is not good.
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GreatCatatonic
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

We need reason for people to be out on the streets, too. Hard to recruit new people when they create a character, spawn, and never see anyone for a week.

--Great
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Tue Oct 02, 2018 8:59 pm    Post subject: Re: Removal of crafting upgrade in faction strongholds Reply with quote

Edith wrote:
Faction gunbenches, forges and medbays are ruining the game. We have gone back to small faction farming and the change is not good.


Could you clarify what the problem is, and how it is caused by gunbenches, forges and medbays?

If you mean "large factions are farming small factions for renown, which is crushing small factions", kill renown being fixed means factions have a pretty big renown incentive to hit factions with more people in them. The raidy factions I'm aware of aren't getting much of their renown from raids on microfactions, and are hitting other larger factions when they can. Having something actually worth spending renown on doesn't appear to be increasing raids on microfactions.

I should add that part of the point of gunbenches, forges and medbays (and a wider range of stronghold upgrades that will probably be added in the future) is to put pressure on factions go out and raid regularly to keep being able to afford them. Raids generate activity, generate XP, and generate targets findable out in the street as raiders and raided scramble to get home. Upgrades should force hard choices as to how you as faction leaders are going to spend your limited renown income stream. Their current costs were a tentative first try and are subject to review, especially for the new breath. If we're in a situation where everyone is easily able to afford all the upgrades at once (and please provide feedback if you think this is the case!), then either the upgrades are too cheap or Renown is too easily obtained, and one of those things needs to be fixed.

There are also some complicating factors given the circumstances:
- Some older factions have giant reserves of Renown that they inherited from Breath 3's old Renown-for-Infusion mechanic; for lack of interesting things to spend renown on until 2018, they sat on those stockpiles until now. Such factions don't have to worry about making choices about their renown expenditure and it's probably skewing the appearance of upgrades as a feature.
- Under the current circumstances, all present factions except the top 5-10 or so are Small Factions from the standpoint of wider Nexus history. This means the feeling of being in a small faction and getting raided is probably pretty widespread even when those raiding them might think they're raiding mid-sized factions.
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Edith
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 11:06 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

On The House of Black and White
Quote:
- Kira of Invisible Manufacturing Agency? (Stronghold: 8, 32, Elysium) has taken your faction standard! Your faction loses 6 points of renown! (2018-09-24 09:10:04).

Quote:
- Kira of Invisible Manufacturing Agency? (Stronghold: 8, 32, Elysium) has taken your faction standard! Your faction loses 6 points of renown! (2018-09-28 00:35:44)

Quote:
- Samus Aran of Invisible Manufacturing Agency? (Stronghold: 8, 32, Elysium) has taken your faction standard! Your faction loses 5 points of renown! (2018-10-01 22:14:29).


On Ice Ice Baby - crafting faction
Quote:
- Kira destroyed a ward protecting this location! (2018-09-25 23:15:25).
- Your stronghold ward has been destroyed! (2018-09-25 23:15:25).
- Kira whispered to you, saying "Hmmmm, you have a transaction currently, sorry about these visits but we need a way to feed the gunbench atm, so so sorry Sad" (2018-09-25 23:16:26).
- Sneaky said, "Oh yeah hi. I, uh, need accuracy enchantment." (2018-09-25 23:20:50).
- You say, "Sure, pass it over" (2018-09-26 10:58:02).
- Sneaky said, "You need more space." (2018-09-26 11:19:13).
- Your stronghold is under attack! (2018-09-26 12:26:24).

Quote:
- Kira of Invisible Manufacturing Agency? (Stronghold: 8, 32, Elysium) has taken your faction standard! Your faction loses 4 points of renown! (2018-10-01 23:02:05).


I don't play the game to feed one faction's gunbench. A faction level 6 faction repeating attacking 1 or two member factions. In fact I've stopped playing altogether now. If the problem is fixed I will return.
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 1:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

As long as renown is finite and things that people want to spend renown on exist, people will raid for renown. Eliminating all things that people would find desirable to spend renown on means no more raiding - now or ever - which would probably be the end of the game.

The issue that I see here is one of renown gain, not renown expenditure. Factions ought to be encouraged to attack someone their own size. IMA in your examples is certainly capable of doing this, having successfully raided factions larger than themselves in the quite recent past. But right now, renown gain mechanics don't work this way; their Renown gain is your faction level times two, plus two renown for every mutually hostile kill (and if you think yourself unlikely to raid them you can deny them much of this tactic by unhostiling them).

In Nexus War, Renown (Honor then) gain for flag capping was a sliding scale that varied depending on the difference between the level of the attacking faction and the level of the target faction. This discouraged factions from hitting factions that were much smaller than them, as the rewards were proportionately smaller. As we look toward the next Breath, perhaps it's worth considering such a system again.
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Edith
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2018 10:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kandarin wrote:
As long as renown is finite and things that people want to spend renown on exist, people will raid for renown. Eliminating all things that people would find desirable to spend renown on means no more raiding - now or ever - which would probably be the end of the game.


No one asked for that. Strawman agrument. Before the change with renown charges for gunbench, medbay and forge raiding was happening. Has raiding on large factions increased since the change? This seems to be a change that small evil or neutral factions pay for. Should small factions stop killing people so they don't be farming targets? Why does enjoying the game depend on the size of the faction you are in?

Quote:
The issue that I see here is one of renown gain, not renown expenditure. Factions ought to be encouraged to attack someone their own size. IMA in your examples is certainly capable of doing this, having successfully raided factions larger than themselves in the quite recent past. But right now, renown gain mechanics don't work this way; their Renown gain is your faction level times two, plus two renown for every mutually hostile kill (and if you think yourself unlikely to raid them you can deny them much of this tactic by unhostiling them).


Perhaps if you raid 2 levels down in size you should lose renown? I brought up renown expenditure because that is the change that started this sort of farming. Setting the problem factions to neutral is not a solution. Its only just recently that renown was gained for killing enemies. Why should small factions give up hope of ever holding onto renown?

Quote:
In Nexus War, Renown (Honor then) gain for flag capping was a sliding scale that varied depending on the difference between the level of the attacking faction and the level of the target faction. This discouraged factions from hitting factions that were much smaller than them, as the rewards were proportionately smaller. As we look toward the next Breath, perhaps it's worth considering such a system again.


And that had limited effect in changing behaviour. Though it would help. Still, when you can't keep a SH up for 24 hours because someone wants your renown, the game in unplayable. All the AP going to respawning, resetting and fixing forts then die and repeat. How is that fun? What if other factions started the same tactics? All the SH plants shown above for The House of Black and White were in different locations.

I have tried to handle this in game with Amok of 6th Ward as they wouldn't stop raiding 6th Ward. Amok has been wagering a guerrilla campaign against them to regain lost renown. The other chars can't recap their flags without alt abusing.

Anyway, its broken and I'm over it.
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Kandarin
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 10:30 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Small factions being over-raided has been an issue with the Clash player experience as far back as I can remember. This change did not cause it. Before the 2018 patch series, factions were just as interested in raiding for renown, but needed it just to have basic necessities of faction life like a safe and a bulletin board. Only in periods with an extraordinary lull of raiding activity (which late 2017 was) has this not been an observed issue.

I'm unfortunately unable to get raid data, but from experience (I'm in about half the large factions that are actively raiding right now) yes, raiding in general had an uptick in 2018 from where it was in 2017. It's also worth saying that across the board, large factions prefer to target other large factions for organized raids led by faction leaders. This isn't a result of recent changes, nor reduced by them.

That said, in all the large factions that I'm in there are always some people who go off on their own and solo raid small factions. These are usually people who, for schedule, chat access or timezone reasons, are unable to join our normal leader-planned raids against other large factions capable of raiding us back. There are a number of motivations for this; some want to feel like they're contributing to upkeep even if they can't join normal raids. Some just get satisfaction from raiding something even if it's a tiny target. Some are just trying to get XP without having to coordinate with their factionmates (and it's worth noting that in all your examples, the solo raider who hit you was not maxed).

I'm not in IMA and thus not privy to their decisions, but I suspect you're looking at the same lone-wolf solo raider phenomenon, not a mandate among their whole faction to target microfactions. I'm also not aware (and would notice if it was in my factions at least) of any across-the-board increase in raids by large factions on small factions; no "we need to keep up our gunbenches, so everyone please step up microfaction raids!" calls have been voiced in large faction meta anywhere where I can see them.

...all that said, people in large factions raiding small factions shouldn't get so much renown for it, nor should you lose so much renown for it. The dev team is now seriously discussing how to scale renown gain based on the size of the attacking and defending factions. We're not settled on a specific set of numbers yet, but should hopefully be able to come up with a means to better incentivize factions to hit targets closer to their own size.
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Edith
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 05, 2018 11:58 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok, thanks.
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Badziew
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 06, 2018 4:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Two wild ideas for B5 modifications:

- base Renown gain not only on faction size but also on current size of Stronghold defense (numbers and levels of characters etc)

- adjust scale so that extremely "unworthy" targets may even cause raiders to lose Renown instead of gaining it
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