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Posted: Tue Jul 05, 2016 8:04 am Post subject: Suggestion Megathread: Tanks
Table of Contents wrote:
Method of suggesting
With alpha testing of Tier 2 classes underway, the dev team has set its sights on the next role, Tanks. This thread is designed to collect input from you. Please keep all discussions civil, arguing about your suggestion or putting down another players suggestion will not effect the chances of it appearing in B4.
Method of Suggesting
Not sure how to format your thoughts? Consider the following questions:
What do you like about this class? Do you want this to be kept, or changed for B4?
What do you dislike about this class? Do you want this to be remove, or changed for B4?
What do you think this class missing? How would you like to see to see it implemented in B4?
Please avoid using numbers when discussing balancing skills, as damage and soak values are going to changes between B3.5 and B4. Instead, use vague amounts, such as less, more, a lot, or a little.
For our sanity, please label your thoughts in the following method:
Tanks in general [bold] Seraphs [bold and blue] Eternal Soldiers [bold and green] Infernal Behemoths [bold and red]
Example: The ES should have an aura. Auras are a strong way of dealing with pets, and the other tanks performed well with an aura of their own. I felt the ES was weaker than other classes that can tank because of it.
You are free to discuss the interaction between tank classes/roles with other classes/roles, but discussions that go way off topic will be removed without warning. This is meant to be a source for us devs, and we don't want to muddle through pages and pages of discussions that don't pertain to tanks.
doesn't seem to be a very popular thread
not a suggestion atm, just a query
What's the design philosophy behind them?
I get that the Tank role has two primary functions (ie 1.Stay alive, 2.Deal with pets/petmasters) but it looks like the initial build concept for earlier breaths focused on them all being fairly similar, with survivability depending on (specializing in) total HP (IB) vs soak (Seraph) vs Dodge (ES).
Obviously at this stage of the game, auras have since become the primary factor that determines the effectiveness of a tank, and the nerf to dodge enchants back in B3 combined with the lack of an aura (and expensive CP cost of skills) has crippled the ES in its 'specialization' for the tank role. I have a vague recollection that ESes in earlier B3 were actually extremely effective at their role, back when they could roll with obscene levels of dodge, and use DBses and WoF to geek petmasters through forts, but that's neither here nor there
Granted, this is a gross oversimplification, and I get that there are other factors in play as well (seraphs with slightly higher versatility and a better aura, IBs being able to self heal with Blood Taste/Adrenal healing as well as getting destructive blow, etc etc) but fundamentally speaking, it doesn't really seem like adding an aura to ESes will really give much diversity between the three tank classes overall.
(this isn't really a criticism so much as legit curiosity)
Only asking because (for comparison) it seems like all of the other roles have tremendous diversity in how they accomplish what they do. (Tacticians, Petmasters, Warmages, etc) To use Petmasters as an example: all have the same role/function (ie bring the pain, stay alive) but do it fairly different ways. (Self sustaining ghouls vs heavy hitting judgemasters vs nether hounds; aethersprites vs wights that drain / simulacrum vs interpose thrall / acid blood) Again, gross oversimplification, and obv they don't all accomplish what they need to do with equal effectiveness, but they def do it in different ways
Are you guys shooting for the same sort of diversity in the tank role as well?
So when designing classes, we aim to have core skills, which are fairly similar between the different classes, and flavour which won't necessarily have a counterparts.
To take the Paladin/Myrmidon as examples, they both should do about the same damage once they have bought their damage skills, however the damage skills work in different ways (Combination attack vs bolster attack, critical hit vs elite attack).
They then have flavour skills which are totally different to each other - Paladin can negate the next attack that does over 10 damage, Myrmidon can ignore the weight of armour.
We'll be following a similar route with tanks. They'll all do the same job via different routes - high HP/Soak/Miss chance, and they will all have an aura because that's needed to do their job of "Go clear pets". (Unless we bring back the DBS the ES can't tank anywhere near as well as the other tanks. Yes, this means that they're more similar, but I suspect we'll be able to differentiate the auras.)
But outside the core skills, there should be plenty of skills that do something unique that the other classes don't get. Whether that is "Oh hey I have a ranged aura" or "Oh hey I heal for a ton" will depend on the class, of course.
TL;DR - They'll have some skills that do the same thing in different ways and then more skills that are unique to help differentiate them.
Personally I would do the tank and the Pet master development at the same time, for three reasons.
*1, they are intrinsically connected, Pets v tank.
*2, Having no more immunities means the interaction between Pets V Tanks has also changed.
*3, How do you propose to balance / know if an aura is needed / will work, without first knowing how the NEW pet mechanic will work? I feel these two things go hand in hand, overall it would save backtracking and Development time.
For example, Let us hypothetically say a lich's Wight in B4 causes Twitchy status when it hits 50% hp, Would this not be an ample time to possibly add a new skill to say, oh I don't know, the ES. With a skill that rinses pet applied debuffs and status effects.
In my opinion it would give the depth of skills, balance and a deeper set of "Unique Tank Skills", as well as making the Pets more than just HP bags with varying damage types. An issue with pets at the moment is, those with an Unique skill are too "Meta" or don't do enough, and are few and far between. Ghoul is too "Meta", Will-o-Wisp rarely proc's its ability "Not Meta" or balanced, as examples of this. _________________ “I'm a man of simple tastes. I'm always satisfied with the best.” ~Oscar Wilde
"Everyone loves to hate a good villain!" Dr. Cleaver
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