Login
Nickname

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one. As a registered user you have some advantages like theme manager, comments configuration and post comments with your name.

Nexus Clash :: View topic - QTDDTOT
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

QTDDTOT

 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Rules Discussion
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
hellowhatsgoingon
Mortal
Mortal


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 2:12 am    Post subject: QTDDTOT Reply with quote

Questions that don't deserve their own thread

hey folks. Poking my head back in since it looks like this game is still sort of alive, though I'm told it's mostly the same 10-12 players raiding each other back and forth. So it goes. Was fiddling with the character generator and I had some questions about B3.5, figured I'd just throw everything into one thread. MB if this should be in build advice instead.

Are barricades immune to all skills that affect soak?
I know that precision of the assassin doesn't ignore soak granted by barricades. Is this the case with Conduit skills? (Focused/Channeled Trail)

How 'bout Reveal Weakness? 'Drained' status from Corruptors? DO stackable negative soak from Acid Burn?

Are liches still 1 build fits all? (ie get ghouls, get simulacrum and TA, get servitor, everything else is just details with ghouls being superior to other pet options because they self replicate and are cheap)

Are ESes still painfully mediocre tanks that remain strapped for CP? Looks like the removal of DBSes has gimped them by making them less capable of that whole "gank the petmaster with WoF/DBS because you have no aura" though I suppose that was always more of a theoretical role anyways

Do corruptors with pet enchanters still get to pull mad soak/flight/accuracy/immunity/regen/etc shenaningans by manabiting enchanted gear for ridiculous durations?

Divine Herald archers + Death Harbinger mp/AP loop abuse on raids?

Are wizards still better at using guns than most combat classes?

How 'bout dem Fallen? At a glance, they...well gun users seem sort of viable with lots of minmaxing, but idunno, any Fallen want to weigh in?
Are shadow meld hidden fallen invisible to pets? (not sure if pet enhanced senses are different from character enhanced senses, so)

tbh I'm a minmaxing dick who enjoys theorycrafting so I'm less interested in "well the flavour is super cool" / "I have an X and that one time I used my skill to Y I was just cackling with glee" and more "this is how you can prop up a struggling faction by fulfilling multiple roles while also still being above average/good in one specialization"

I'll probably have more questions later I suppose. Thanks in advance.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
jazelock
Howdy!
Howdy!


Joined: Feb 20, 2010
Posts: 193
Location: Your kitchen

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 3:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to be completely unhelpful and give mostly vague answers, except for one.

Liches, it has been told to me, can act as rather good tanks with a modified build.

ESes, it has also been told to me by someone trying to help me build my ES, is actually really good if you ignore their favored weapon skills (guns and h2h), which are the skills sucking up CP for the most part, and actually go with, say, archery and the generic damage boost skills. But your question was about tanking. They can get really really dodgey if you don't spend all your CP on combat skills, but they do lack an aura. You'd be reliant on potions, but if you have access to a good potions person... But, I guess if you want the best tank around who nobody can get down, then other classes such as Seraph or IB would be more to your liking?

Now, somewhat addressing your wizards/guns question as well, I play a maxed Fallen at the moment and I love love love the class. The flavor is amazing yeah, but also they never need to search for ammo. They pretty much never run out of ammo in a raid, as long as there's a target left so that they can reload from HP, shoot a target to heal HP, and rinse and repeat. They can deal over 30 damage per hit with a pump action shotgun (charged attack from hiding).

I don't know for certain if they're detectable by pets or not while Shadowskulking. My personal experience is that my Fallen has only been detected once by a pet, and that was a Will-O-Wisp, but I may have just gotten lucky, so I'll let someone else confirm.

In a raid, they're pretty good at bashing and taking down forts. If they have Plague of Doubt, they can make killing tanky goods a lot easier. (I'm looking at you, darn Seraphs.) If their faction didn't bring along a PM to clear, I suspect a properly built Fallen could clear a sizable portion of the enemy's SH. And not having enough AP to head back is no problem as Shadowmeld just lets you hang out near the downed enemy SH. I'm guessing the Charade tree would also make the Fallen a headache for any good faction trying to raid their SH. But given my Fallen is BEING HELD HOSTAGE in an IDIOTIC good faction with plenty of raiding PMs, I have no personal experience with these elements.

#ThisFallen'sTwoCents
_________________
Cassandra 943 | Flowey 10025 | SCP-053 10454
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hellowhatsgoingon
Mortal
Mortal


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:07 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

yeah I was a bow ES in B3 iirc. Never had any complaints about his offensive output [had an effective +14 to dmg with enchants and skills most of the time with WoF for extra burst dmg] but I remember my jimmies being rustled when the (admittedly necessary) dodge enchant nerf brought him down to near useless, even after going full dodge. Master of the flow being fairly terrible CP investment didn't help things much either. Sucked that he couldn't even contribute by camping off plane to forage for components without getting eaten by wandering zombies of all things. I'm guessing not much has changed on that end, then.

Hm. Lich tanks? Guess that's, uhhhh... +30% from max simulacrum and terrifying aspect, +10% blur, additional dodge/evasion if you're HtH and either a castable aura or Aura of the Crypt. Plus pets functioning as meatshields. Not sure I'd want to waste my offensive pets as meatshields but they self replicate, so. Oh, plus alchemy I guess.

Yeah it looks like with an enchanted shotty on a fallen you could loop Sadistic Glee and Bond of the Mechanical (with bonus AP gain on kills), as well as shadow dancing and/or combining that with Hellfire for soaky targets. Infernal Jets notwithstanding, I guess it could be pretty fun if kitted out, even with a 100CP tax
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Teksura
Nexus Archivist
Nexus Archivist


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 4:43 am    Post subject: Re: QTDDTOT Reply with quote

I guess I'll field some of this.

hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Are barricades immune to all skills that affect soak?
I know that precision of the assassin doesn't ignore soak granted by barricades. Is this the case with Conduit skills? (Focused/Channeled Trail)

Barricades are not a thing, and have not been a thing since Nexus War. You sound like you're describing fortifications, which are a very different thing. Fortifications are not the same thing as soak. As such, skills which ignore any amount of soak do not apply. This is a very important balance aspect because otherwise you'd end up with void walkers who could just solo a ward and start killing people by ignoring soak.

Focused Trail has nothing to do with ignoring soak. It applies a negative soak modifier to affected targets. Much like you've seen in the case of your void walkers, it is possible to have less than zero soak, and for this to result in taking increased damage.


hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
How 'bout Reveal Weakness? 'Drained' status from Corruptors? DO stackable negative soak from Acid Burn?

Reveal Weakness raises the damage floor to 4. It does exactly that.

Drained likewise has nothing to do with ignoring soak. It applies negative soak.

Acid Burn also has nothing to do with ignoring soak. It too applies negative soak.


hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Are liches still 1 build fits all? (ie get ghouls, get simulacrum and TA, get servitor, everything else is just details with ghouls being superior to other pet options because they self replicate and are cheap)



I'll let the stats answer this. Here is a list of how many people have bought which Lich skills:

Quote:
Lich Skills
  • Animate Dead (30 CP) - 71
    • Bone Seeker (60 CP) - 7
    • Create Fossil Monstrosity (60 CP) - 25
    • Simulacrum (60 CP) - 28
    • Summon Ghoul (60 CP) - 50

  • Bonesword (30 CP) - 16
    • Infectious Blade (60 CP) - 4

  • Death Mastery (30 CP) - 35
  • Death Touch (30 CP) - 37
    • Aura of the Crypt (60 CP) - 17
    • Hand of the Necromancer (60 CP) - 6

  • Reanimation (30 CP) - 75
    • Phylactery (60 CP) - 4

  • Servitor of the Grave (30 CP) - 48
    • Soul Harvest (60 CP) - 5

  • Summon Will-O-Wisp (30 CP) - 29
    • Summon Wight (60 CP) - 18

  • Terrifying Aspect (30 CP) - 45



hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Are ESes still painfully mediocre tanks that remain strapped for CP? Looks like the removal of DBSes has gimped them by making them less capable of that whole "gank the petmaster with WoF/DBS because you have no aura" though I suppose that was always more of a theoretical role anyways

They really suffer from not having that aura, yeah. It's on the to-fix list.


hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Do corruptors with pet enchanters still get to pull mad soak/flight/accuracy/immunity/regen/etc shenaningans by manabiting enchanted gear for ridiculous durations?

Basically, yes.

hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Divine Herald archers + Death Harbinger mp/AP loop abuse on raids?

I have no idea what you're referring to.


hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
Are wizards still better at using guns than most combat classes?

Warmages are still one of the top damage dealing classes, yes.


hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
How 'bout dem Fallen? At a glance, they...well gun users seem sort of viable with lots of minmaxing, but idunno, any Fallen want to weigh in?
Are shadow meld hidden fallen invisible to pets? (not sure if pet enhanced senses are different from character enhanced senses, so)


Fallen is basically the template for Survivalists. They get ammo for free by using their HP, and they regenerate health by shooting people with it. Shadow Meld keeps them hidden from everyone, even most pets. the only pets who can "see" a shadow meld Fallen are pets which can see invisible characters. They primally focus on having the tools for a smart player to not get killed, as well as having the tools to be self sufficient.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Saint_Jimmy
Totally a real Doctor
Totally a real Doctor


Joined: Aug 24, 2011
Posts: 707

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 6:14 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

ES tanking - you can, if you're in a good faction, still hit mid 60s dodge, which is enough that most pets (such as ghouls!) will almost never hit you. That said, I'm pretty sure they've got higher to hit than the pet table says, but... In terms of not dying in a couple of ticks to a pet wall, you're better off than most classes outside of NCs. The lack of an aura *is* a pain, and you usually want to have a few MR potions and just WoF the PM in the face.

Divine Heralds still get bonus AP/MP on kill, yes.

I *think* that corruptors hex of agony can bypass forts, but I haven't ever picked that skill up, so...

I think everything else you asked has been covered already.
_________________
Avatar is Alonai courtesy of Signed.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
hellowhatsgoingon
Mortal
Mortal


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 38

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 8:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whoops. Yeah I meant forts not barricades, ha.

Guess I worded some of my questions poorly. I understand that Precision is about ignoring soak and the other skills are about applying negative soak. Just wanted clarification on whether or not the other skills get no sell'd when it comes to fortifications the same way Precision does.

ex let's say we have a mortal wearing no armor in a faction with max forts. He has 10 soak. VW will do (base dmg - 10) points of dmg, regardless of whether or not he has precision of the assassin.

If my DO dings the same mortal, say, four times in a row, that mortal now has -4 soak [so 6 soak total]; so on the fifth hit, I'm now doing [9-6] dmg?

Same deal with reveal weakness? Say I'm a conduit who has strength and a throwing knife [3+2=5dmg]; even if that mortal has 10 soak from fortifications, since I've raised his damage floor to 4 it means I'll ping him for 4 as long as he's under the targeted status?

cheers though, thanks for the answers
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Teksura
Nexus Archivist
Nexus Archivist


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Sun Jun 26, 2016 10:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

hellowhatsgoingon wrote:
ex let's say we have a mortal wearing no armor in a faction with max forts. He has 10 soak.


No, he does not. Once again, fortifications are not soak. Coding limitations force the message pane to display this as soak, but make no mistake it is not the same thing as soak. This distinction is very important for skills which ignore soak, for reasons which I stated above.



Every one of your examples listed couldn't care at all if there are any fortifications present or not. They all behave exactly the same way with or without them:


Void Walkers have the ability to ignore all soak. Fortifications are not soak, ergo they do not ignore Fortifications. But they will ignore a target's soak if the target is protected by both Soak and fortifications.

Negative soak still applies in exactly the same way with or without fortifications. I'm not sure where you got the idea that maybe Fortifications might somehow negate the effect and prevent someone from suffering negative soak, but that does not happen.

The damage floor becomes 4 when you use reveal weakness. It doesn't care what is reducing your damage, the damage floor is 4 and therefore you can't be dealing less than 4 damage.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lychwood
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Jul 05, 2014
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 10:29 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
any Fallen want to weigh in?


I guess I'm the moron who wanted a shadow dirk Fallen. It's...not bad? Good at hiding, with some pretty heavy incentives for Good aligned players to leave him alone (Aura, morality draining)

Fighting things is honestly kind of miserable.

Quote:
They can deal over 30 damage per hit with a pump action shotgun (charged attack from hiding).


And my shadow dirk does slightly less damage (fair, considering it's using an innate with no need for ammo). However, if you stop to think about it...

Even if you manage to hide on your first try, that's taking two AP per attack. Which means your damage-per-ap is around 15 (or in my case 12-ish). I rarely manage to hide successfully on the first try. Usually it's more like two or three attempts. If RNGsus is feeling sassy, it can be a lot more. On two hide attempts, that makes it 10 damage-per-ap, and at three you're looking at 7.5.

On top of that, you have the fact that your attacks from hiding take a pretty significant hit to their accuracy.

So most of the time, being a survivalist with limited access to potions, I don't even bother attacking from hiding, which is supposed to be my build's main offensive feature. Personally, I think significantly improving the success rate on a hide attempt for the Fallen might make it passable at damage-dealing. Nowhere near DPS class range, mind you--they wouldn't be far off most tanks in terms of punchiness.

I'm sure someone will argue that "They're supposed to survive, not kill things" but...survivalists as a concept probably need a little re-working. They're unpopular mostly because they aren't very exciting, I'd guess. Mine just kind of sits around. People don't hunt much on this map and at this stage in the game, it doesn't really have need for resource gathering, it's not a part of a raiding faction, and wouldn't be much help if it were...
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Teksura
Nexus Archivist
Nexus Archivist


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There has been an awful lot of arguments and discussions about attacks from hidden. And even some flat out "Screw this I'm writing some code to run simulations for us".

One thing I personally would like to see the Fallen get is some means to auto-hide (or at least attempt a hide) on a hit. Possibly as a feature of the Shadow Dirk, possibly applying to all attacks (at a cost negated by the Dirk), but I dunno. We have a lot of opinions on hiding and the potential dangers of auto-hides (especially in a live combat situation). And many of these concerns I do not have good answers to, which means I'm in a position where I should back down since that's how our development process works. Basically, if I go "here is a thing I'd like to see", and someone else goes "Here is a massive problem caused by that", unless I have a good explanation for why that either isn't such a big problem, or how to resolve that issue, I really should be letting it go.


As I recall, the main concern with auto-hides like that was in a live combat situation, it actually creates a HUGE advantage because you're frequently vanishing from the target pane. Right now the best answer I can throw out there is to give a different effect which still gives the damage bonuses for attacking from hidden, but instead of being hidden you get some kind of defense bonus or something. I dunno.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lychwood
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Jul 05, 2014
Posts: 171

PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2016 11:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Quote:
Right now the best answer I can throw out there is to give a different effect which still gives the damage bonuses for attacking from hidden, but instead of being hidden you get some kind of defense bonus or something. I dunno.


That's pretty much where I ended up in thinking about it. Successful hide gives you normal hiding, plus a little buff that measures duration in status ticks. Some decrease in the damage bonus to account for being able to use it repeatedly, with a low (~5%-ish) chance of adding more stacks when attacking with the shadow dirk.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
GCP
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Jan 22, 2010
Posts: 296

PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2016 7:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That sounds interesting.

Get Behind Them : 30CP skill

Upon a successful attack you get a chance to 'Get Behind Them' = to your chance to hide in the current square. If successful, your next attack would gain all the plusses and minuses of an attack from hiding (based on your skillset) but you would not actually be hidden.

Maybe have it be a toggle ability that costs 1-5 MP / successful attack.

This would keep you from constantly disappearing from the target pane, unless of course you chose to actually use the Hide button and do things the old fashioned way - an option you would still have should you run out of MP.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Rules Discussion All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Page 1 of 1

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Forums ©
Credit: Site logo artwork (C)2006 Bradley K McDevitt (used under license)
Character creation and raid ticker icons by Lorc and Delapouite at game-icons.net

PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.