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Nexus Clash :: View topic - [morality change] RE: Eye of Clockwork Precision
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[morality change] RE: Eye of Clockwork Precision

 
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Mallich
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 11:18 am    Post subject: [morality change] RE: Eye of Clockwork Precision Reply with quote

The wiki, on Eye of Clockwork Precision wrote:
The Seraph also gains the option to deal less damage to gain additional accuracy. For every -1 damage penalty they take to their attack, they gain +10% accuracy. The seraph may not give up more than 10 damage in this way, nor may the seraph give up sufficient damage as to reduce the weapon damage to 0 or below.
This means that a Seraph can very easily decide to do 1 point of damage to an evil enemy, turning even a single evil mortal into a morality farm.

Proposed fix: Seraphs giving up damage do not gain any MO for hitting/wounding.

P.s. I'm not sure if people gain MO for dealing 0 damage (e.g. using a burning blade against a fire-immune behemoth, or a death weapon against a revenant). If they do, then I think that that should fall under the same anti morality-farming mechanism.
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Shadok
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

This would be beneficial.

Both of them. 0 damage MO-shift failure and reducing Seraph abuse.
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Rincewind
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I believe that currently all 0 damage attacks do trigger MO shifts.

I'm in favour of making 0 damage attacs not change MO. I'm against MO not changing if Seraphs give up damage (give up 1 damage, attack angels with impunity? No thank you) - Thats just me though Razz
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Annathema
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 4:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Rincewind wrote:
I believe that currently all 0 damage attacks do trigger MO shifts.

I'm in favour of making 0 damage attacs not change MO. I'm against MO not changing if Seraphs give up damage (give up 1 damage, attack angels with impunity? No thank you) - Thats just me though Razz


Pedantry, engage!

OP only suggested against *gaining* morality for giving up damage, not morality changing in general.
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Mallich
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PostPosted: Wed Mar 18, 2015 5:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

TerminaEst wrote:
Pedantry, engage!

OP only suggested against *gaining* morality for giving up damage, not morality changing in general.
TerminaEst used Pedantry!
It was super effective!

Sorry, sorry...

Anyhow. Rincewind has already mentioned the reasons why I only talked about disallowing morality gain. I'm on the fence regarding 0-damage attacks causing morality loss. Morality gain from 0-damage attacks is certainly something I'm against, but I'm ambivalent towards morality loss from 0-damage attacks. After all, there are quite a few charged attacks that could result in 0 damage while inflicting debuffs.
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Foxling
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PostPosted: Thu Mar 19, 2015 3:31 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Somehow to me removing the MO gain altogether from specific attacks no matter how are they used seems... i dunno. Especially when MO farming is not innately a problem with those attacks per se, but the general idea of lowering damage.

Perhaps a mechanic to not grant MO when an attack is too weak would make more sense. Or a limit of how much can be gained from a single target before a kill.

Of course in such a case the demons would need a reverse of it most likely. And... the whole thing may be getting a bit to complex for what's it worth.
Plus the matter of the indirect stuff.
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Mallich
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 5:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Foxling wrote:
Somehow to me removing the MO gain altogether from specific attacks no matter how are they used seems... i dunno. Especially when MO farming is not innately a problem with those attacks per se, but the general idea of lowering damage.
Some characters specialize in a certain areas and have no skills in other areas. Mages, for instance, might specialize in magic to the extent that all their spells get +lots damage. A mage trying to farm morality can either use their favoured combat tree - magic (which, due to the various passive buffs, still does lots of damage and so would quickly kill the target) - or use a much less damaging combat tree (hand to hand combat, perhaps, which might require two dozen hits before killing someone). However, their lack of skill means that their accuracy with the other trees would be abysmal. They would rarely hit, which means that their morality would change very slowly.
The problem with the Eye is that it allows a character to use their less-powerful trees (say, hand to hand) due to the big boost in accuracy, while at the same time making the damage even lower.
My suggestion isn't a "fixes everything" suggestion. It's a band-aid. I think it's better than no fix at all.

Foxling wrote:
Perhaps a mechanic to not grant MO when an attack is too weak would make more sense.
The problem there is that some characters really can't do much damage. A character's best damage might be 3 points from their kick. If they're sincerely trying their best to murder someone, they should still lose morality for it.

Foxling wrote:
Of course in such a case the demons would need a reverse of it most likely.
I've not seen demons have trouble maintaining evil morality. Still, just because I've not seen it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen. People, what are your thoughts?


Foxling wrote:
Or a limit of how much can be gained from a single target before a kill.
That's... actually a really good idea. I like it a lot. Thoughts, people?
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Pikanchion
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 9:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Mallich wrote:
Foxling wrote:
Or a limit of how much can be gained from a single target before a kill.
That's... actually a really good idea. I like it a lot. Thoughts, people?


This works, preferably with it being a limit on the amount gained or lost rather than just gained.
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Foxling
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I can see how making low damage attacks not change morality could create issues for some. Adding further rules and exceptions would only mull it over further so yeah, probably will leave that one be.
Truth is that was a simplified version of another idea where mo would be related to damage dealt, with possible (hidden) fractions in case of lower damage.
But ok, enough of that already.

And admittedly - i don't think demons have problem keeping low either. With most things giving them negative mo, healing and power fixing probably isn't a huge issue right now.
It was mostly a comment in case a general mo gaining mechanic addition would be made, which probably won't.
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Kiralio
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 11:32 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Aside from morality shifts occurring for zero damage attacks that don't apply status effects, I don't see how any of this is a problem. Angels have to manage their morality; fine. If they want to put in the prep work of having an evil punching bag to forcibly atone themselves, that's not just clever use of game mechanics, it's not even especially anti-thematic.

It's even sort of "balanced" for Seraphs to be best at it, since they don't get access to Hand of Zealotry.
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Yukari
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 20, 2015 12:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kiralio wrote:
It's even sort of "balanced" for Seraphs to be best at it, since they don't get access to Hand of Zealotry.


They do, though it's the only angel class that has to pay 60 instead of 30 CP for it.
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Mallich
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

This thread now has nothing to do with the Eye of Clockwork precision. Could a dev/mod please move it into the Rules Discussion subforum?
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Kylinn
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 4:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

macabre wrote:
Isn't it silly that killing a void walker is less Good than fixing a few doors? It's a silly system top to bottom. The main concern should be gameplay, and excluding weaker combat characters from meaningful morality shifts is Bad Gameplay.

This. So much this. And especially this, particularly looking at new players / characters and support classes.

Lychwood wrote:
How many mortals bother grinding morality with their pitiful hit rates to begin with? Definitely better ways to go about it.

Mortals approaching level 10 and aiming for angelhood all need to grind MO if they haven't stuck to only Evil victims or other Good deeds (restoring power, etc). Which is only another kind of grinding since it's much slower to level seeking only evil victims than indiscriminately hitting everyone. (Plus the CP hit for Sense Evil - shouldn't that be automatic for all angels?) Let's not make it harder on the poor mortals and Tier 2s.
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Rincewind
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 23, 2015 5:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for people derailing your suggestion Mallich. I have split off most of the tangential and rather heated debate to over yonder.

Please keep this thread on the subject at hand, and use the other one for discussing the morality system as it relates to damage.

Perhaps a good middle ground here is for the skill to have a damage floor which will cause you to gain the MO - Its not really dishing out justice for good if you aren't doing much damage.

That way people who drop a few damage to increase their hit chance or keep someone alive for a mortal to kill will still gain MO, whereas someone minimising damage for te of farming won't, because purposefully doing far less damag isn't "good".

If that was the case, what would the breakpoint be? 5+ damage for EoCP to trigger MO gain? Does that sound reasonable to people?
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Mallich
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PostPosted: Fri Mar 27, 2015 4:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think that this suggestion really depends on what changes to morality will be made.

If there are no changes in the morality system next breath...
... Then the suggestion can be ignored. The issue I'm trying to fix with this suggestion - seraphs using the Eye to reliably deal tiny amounts of damage with their untrained weapons - is just a tiny part of morality farming. Trying to fix a tiny part will simply introduce complexity without actually improving anything.

If there are small changes in the morality system next breath (e.g. you can't farm morality by using a damage type the enemy is immune to)...
... The suggestion would be: The Eye doesn't cause morality gain if it removes 3 or more points of damage, or perhaps if it deals 3 or less damage. Whichever is easier to implement.

If there are major changes in the morality system next breath (e.g. Teksura's system, or something else like that):
... Then the suggestion can be ignored. It would probably have become obsolete anyway. Smile
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