Nexus Clash

Login

Nickname

Password

Don't have an account yet? You can create one. Registered players can create up to three free characters to battle, team up with your friends and explore the worlds of the Nexus! To create a character once you have registered, click on Game Map at the top of the page.
Nexus Clash :: View topic - Patching and Breath 4
 Forum FAQForum FAQ   SearchSearch   UsergroupsUsergroups   ProfileProfile   Log in to check your private messagesLog in to check your private messages   Log inLog in 

Patching and Breath 4
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Announcements
View previous topic :: View next topic  
Author Message
Teksura
Nexus Fixture
Nexus Fixture


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 3:41 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Kylinn wrote:
The suggestion of 2% for 5 enchants seems much more reasonable.

I have already explained why it is entirely unreasonable by way of being entirely impossible without major code redesign.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
saulres
So Very Sorry
So Very Sorry


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 3720

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 4:22 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:
I have already explained why it is entirely unreasonable by way of being entirely impossible without major code redesign.


BobGeneric wrote:
putting together the code that will be needed to handle Breath Four (which is going to be a "from-the-ground-up rewrite" for a number of reasons).


I'm not seeing the problem? Or is that part of the rewrite already done?
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Shadok
Nexus Fixture
Nexus Fixture


Joined: Aug 15, 2010
Posts: 3955
Location: Gehenna (Earth Branch)

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

saulres wrote:
Teksura wrote:
I have already explained why it is entirely unreasonable by way of being entirely impossible without major code redesign.


BobGeneric wrote:
putting together the code that will be needed to handle Breath Four (which is going to be a "from-the-ground-up rewrite" for a number of reasons).


I'm not seeing the problem? Or is that part of the rewrite already done?

Teksura is saying that this breath, no matter how much people complain, the % from dodge will NOT increase. Breath 4 code isn't Breath 3's code. They're completely incompatible. To pull an example, the "attack" code for Breath 3 is 100-ish lines long. This same code for Breath 4 is around 15-20 lines.
When Breath 4 is designed, we're very possibly going to make the it 2% and a 5 enchantment limit (we've not reached enchanting yet). But breath 3's code doesn't allow this. The cap will always be 10 enchants (and Bob can't find a way to cap it any lower, as Tek said earlier) and the only way we can put a choker on it is to weaken it to the point it's at now.
_________________

"Oh, sorry, thought I was in a Vault of Enlightenment, not someone's booze cabinet." -Kharn
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Teksura
Nexus Fixture
Nexus Fixture


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 5:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It is not possible to patchwork bits of the breath 4 code onto existing breath 3 code. It would break a massive number of things. Asking us to implement breath 4 code onto breath 3 is asking us to push breath 4 out before we've even done half of the work. The code for breath 4 isn't even finished yet for goodness sake, how are we supposed to rush patch it onto breath 3? It's just not going to happen.

When I said we can not do a code restructure at the moment, I meant it. It would be nice if people stopped trying to argue with that fact. There is nothing you can say which will make a breath 3 code rebuild possible or practical.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
saulres
So Very Sorry
So Very Sorry


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 3720

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I apologize. I thought Kylinn was asking for Breath 4, not for Breath 3. Otherwise I wouldn't have said anything.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Kylinn
Nexus Clash Veteran
Nexus Clash Veteran


Joined: Feb 26, 2010
Posts: 1694

PostPosted: Thu Aug 01, 2013 6:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Oh, I'm more concerned about Breath 4 than the current patches, unless Breath 4 is more than a few months away.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
BobGeneric
Administrator
Administrator


Joined: Nov 07, 2009
Posts: 1750

PostPosted: Fri Aug 02, 2013 9:16 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Shadok wrote:
Teksura is saying that this breath, no matter how much people complain, the % from dodge will NOT increase. Breath 4 code isn't Breath 3's code. They're completely incompatible. To pull an example, the "attack" code for Breath 3 is 100-ish lines long. This same code for Breath 4 is around 15-20 lines.
When Breath 4 is designed, we're very possibly going to make the it 2% and a 5 enchantment limit (we've not reached enchanting yet). But breath 3's code doesn't allow this. The cap will always be 10 enchants (and Bob can't find a way to cap it any lower, as Tek said earlier) and the only way we can put a choker on it is to weaken it to the point it's at now.

It cannot be over-emphasized that the Breath 4 code is built along a fundamentally different set of coding assumptions than the previous generation of code - this new set of assumptions makes the code extremely powerful, extremely flexible, and extremely clean and compact... but is completely incompatible with the old generation of code in the same way putting a Dreamcast game into your XBox 360 - even though both are on optical discs - simply doesn't work.

The difference in how concise the "attack" function is vastly understated by Shadok. The Breath 3 code is actually 6009 lines long. The "attack" function in the Breath 4 code is currently 110 lines long (and over a third of those lines are dedicated to converting the result into human-readable text, either the message you get when you attack/are attacked or - mostly - the "error" messages such as "you can't attack with an item you don't own). That isn't a typo, the Breath 3 code really is over fifty times longer (mostly because it's one of the oldest - and therefore least-refined - parts of the code). A whole different set of assumptions about the way the code works have gone into the code for it to be that short, and because of that, I can't just transplant it on the existing code (because a lot of the structural things the code relies on to be that short don't exist in the Breath 3 code).

The downside to a ground-up rewrite was always that the current breath was going to suffer a bit from non-patching. The upside is that a ground-up rewrite makes the code orders of magnitude easier to maintain going forward because it's so much less code to go through when bug-hunting (it's easier to find a bug in 110 lines of code than 6009).

EDIT: To the programmers out there, Breath 4 code uses a lot of MVC and Object-Oriented programming concepts; previous breaths didn't (I know! I know! It's the problem with being self-taught that I didn't know what I was doing when I started out!).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lagn
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: May 12, 2010
Posts: 438

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:19 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Not picking a side on the dodge enchantment issue, but if the issue is enchants stacking with already powerful abilities making them more powerful, why not make using enchanted items cost MP like martial spellcraft (with possible exception for enchanters themselves)? Which would mean an ES with dodge enchantments would lose MP to use for skills and also potentially lose the benefits of their gear altogether. There would be a tradeoff between using enchants and using skills, and enchants would no longer be a simple no-brainer to make powerful classes more powerful (and MP costs make a certain amount of sense flavor-wise, as well).
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Teksura
Nexus Fixture
Nexus Fixture


Joined: Dec 17, 2009
Posts: 5580

PostPosted: Mon Aug 05, 2013 1:34 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The issue was that 30% from enchantment just in general was way too significant of a change from not using it.

The current question is balancing defense enchantments with alternative enchantments. As I said before, it is like the soak and damage faction bonus from breath 2. Defense enchantments are so powerful that they dwarf other options and prevent us from doing other interesting things. But this thread is not for discussing these changes. We are not currently ready for a full discussion on enchantment at this time since we're looking at other aspects of the game.
_________________
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Skritz
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Jan 19, 2010
Posts: 351

PostPosted: Sun Aug 11, 2013 6:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, with a new Breath coming up I guess I'll be getting back into Nexus Clash soon! Very Happy
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Paradox
Explorer
Explorer


Joined: Mar 11, 2010
Posts: 90
Location: Georgia, USA

PostPosted: Wed Aug 14, 2013 3:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, I've also been waiting for the new breath as a point to jump back in. No pressure!
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic    Nexus Clash Forum Index -> Announcements All times are GMT - 7 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3
Page 3 of 3

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2005 phpBB Group
Forums ©
Credit: Site homepage artwork (C) 2017 Acaisha Buffo
Character creation and raid ticker icons by Lorc and Delapouite at game-icons.net
Original Nexus War classes, powers, and lore copyright 2003 - 2019 Brandon Harris (bharris@gaijin.com) used with permission.
PHP-Nuke Copyright © 2005 by Francisco Burzi. This is free software, and you may redistribute it under the GPL. PHP-Nuke comes with absolutely no warranty, for details, see the license.