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Are Pets too powerful on offense?
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Whelp thought we had something interesting there, looks like one preped guy can tank 58 pets and win.

No biggy.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bidigam wrote:
@Tek
1. You are correct saying 7 mortals can maintain a decent sized WM hoard. 7 mortals produce 7 MP per tick. Considering a MOTP hound costs 18 MP (cabal) to summon and have around an excess ap of about 100 (meaning the extra ap they have above their MP) so each MP point can maintain decay of 5 pet, thus 7 MP per tick means maintaining costs of 35-40 hounds. That is how far those 7 mortals can help a WM, beyond that value they can't anymore. If there are two WM for those 7 mortals, well 40 hounds is what you can maintain. Each WM will have 20. (this is not an exact calculation, more like a very rough estimation)

I thought I was quite clear in my last post that Dark Heart works extremely well on non-mortals. The assumption you're making here is that it is an 8 man faction, and then becomes a 9 man faction with the addition of another Wyrm Master.


bidigam wrote:
But in all that lies several assumptions: (1) assumption that 7 players will choose to remain mortals forever so that they have no use for their MP so that WM can summon pets. What I am noticing in practice is that mortals are game until they find use for that MP, and then the restrictions (often in form of complaints) begin.

That's a fallacy which was addressed in my last post. Never did I claim that anyone would be required to remain a mortal forever. Your fallacy is further disrupted by the fact that most factions large enough to support a petmaster tend to have some mortals in them anyway in the form of new members. But the largest nail in this one is the above mentioned fact that there really is nothing to complain about with 1 use of Dark Heart on a character that is at full MP as long as it isn't done right before a raid. But if you're in a faction with that many selfish players, maybe you should find one with more team players?


bidigam wrote:
(2) Assumption that the pets will not be lost by an raid/recap.

Also addressed in my last post. I'm starting to think you didn't actually read it. Once again, most recaps I see do not involve dicking over petmasters for the sake of being a dick. They tend to be "grab the flag and abscond the hell out of there". But it is certainly possible someone somewhere will be a dick, and even in that case I described above the amount of time required to produce a large army of pets, as well as the ease at which they can be summoned on the spot while attending a raid.


bidigam wrote:
(3) Assumption that WM will want to be nailed to the ground and do just that.

That "assumption" was a defining point of the play style being discussed. Yes, people can certainly play a Wyrm Master as a summon on the spot character. But I fail to see the logic in discussing the effectiveness of a petmaster who preps ahead of time but does not wish to do so. If they don't wish to prep themselves ahead of time, then they have no pets to lose in the recap and the entire point is moot.


bidigam wrote:
(4)Assumption that when fortifications are broken, there will not be someone with an aura, two potions and healing items and be active. Because that is all that it takes to render pets useless.

I'm assuming you're now talking about the raid that our hypothetical petmaster was going to attend after the hypothetical recap.

The problem here is that this isn't even a comment being discussed anywhere in my post, which you've now throughly convinced me that you haven't actually read very well. How can I be making an assumption about something I'm not even commenting on?

But if you want to discuss how Tanks can beat Petmasters, the answer is: So what? Petmasters can rip apart pretty much everything else. Are you actually concerned that there is a way to defend against them? We can't have a single magic bullet class that beats everything you know. Everything needs a way to be beaten.



bidigam wrote:
(5) Assumption no active defender/attacker has the "pet messing skills". Most chars are reaching T3 now, and slowly will figure out how to use their skills. If pets are important, so are anti-pet skills.

As above, please read the entire post before you reply to it, just so you know what you're replying to. Wink My post was simply about how Dark Heart is not as difficult as you describe to use, and the speed in which a usefully large army of pets can be pulled together.

But if you want to discuss how Petmasters aren't the silver bullet class that beats everything some more, I'll ask again: So what?


bidigam wrote:
3. Again, experience can be different to all players. But my experience is this: Every single recap I have experienced so far except for one time(*) they sat there and wasted the pet horde.
Call them dicks all you want. They are not being "dicks", they are doing their duty.
Why on earth should they leave a pethorde of an enemy faction to remain intact?

(*) That one time when my pethorde was not wasted it was because they came unprepared, without potions, and the pets ate them.

I don't know what factions you're in, but mine are lucky to get the flag and skedaddle.


bidigam wrote:
4. Yes. What I call "greater power multipliers" or perhaps better "wide effect power multipliers" are these power multipliers of a greater magnitude. Because lots of things can be called "power multiplier". The greater power multipliers is what allow a small raid party to be able to successfully raid a faction larger than their own, sometimes through active defense. In NW the most recognizable greater power multiplier was AoE first and above all else, and in second place, more of a "small faction thing" were pets. Potions were also a kind of a greater power multiplier in NW because with them a single defender could overcome an entire raiding party with little difficulty.

In NClash, potions were reduced to be under control, and AoE was also put down, becoming more of an innate thing, and not as powerful as before at that. Pets have become the first choice of greater power multiplier.

Anyways, I feel like I repeat myself, all of this I posted already on that long ass post.


So in short, you're referring the ability to clear a stronghold of a large meatshield. You're further stating that Pets are the best at this, and that AOE isn't as effective at this?

I'm afraid I have to disagree with you on the AOE point if that is what you're saying. AOE is faster than pets, and a the only way to beat it is to kill the one doing the AOE before they do too much damage. Lets run a couple numbers here. These figures represent 50 AP devoted to AOE, as well as any given cost involved in using it. At 50 AP, it leaves plenty for a character to either travel to the target or take part in the bashing or knick off a few killshots. In short, 50 AP spent on AOE is plenty to make it clear that is what you're using to try and clear. It's also reasonable for a petmaster trying to clear with pets to spend a similar amount trying to get more pets going, or not die horribly.


So, lets run the numbers for fun, I'm going to be defining the MP as including 1 skill which improves your MP cap. The characters involved will be maxed out, and if you're buying some AOE skills it's quite sensible to buy a few skills to be better at it.

Doom Howler: (59 MP, 50 AP)
Wail of the Dead - 30/300
- MP cap alone: 900 damage
- 1 Soul Ice: 1200 damage
- 7 Soul Ice: 1800 damage

Keening of the Damned - 45/450
- MP cap alone: 1350 damage
- 1 Soul Ice: 1800 Damage
- 4 Soul Ice: 2250 Damage

Both can be improved with the use of Magic Recovery potions instead of Soul Ice, and with Alchemy the way it is that isn't too hard anymore.


Archon:
Song of the Word - 45/300
- MP cap alone: 1500 damage
- Add another 300 for every 12 MP regained through Prayer, Energize, or MP recovery potions.
- If using energize, in 50 AP caps at: 2400 damage


Sorcerer (Wizard):
Deep Spellcraft (Bilious Purge/Thunderstrike/Sunflare) - 12/120
- MP cap alone: 600 Damage
- Add 120 for each 14 MP regained through Sorcerer's Might, Soul Ice, MR potions, or energize.
- Under our AP constraints, caps at 1080.



Holy champion AOE gets a bit cumbersome to calculate because of their various upgrades, but they fall somewhere around the Doom Howler and the Archon with decent upgrades and sufficient support.


Mind you, the total damage is not the key to look at here. That only comes into play if you are against a force large enough to take the whole thing. Realistically most cases would require about 20+ targets to reach your max damage. The figure to look at is the per-target damage. What that means is that any given hit with that AOE will do between 1 damage and that number of damage, averaging to half. So in the case of Keening of the Damned, most people will be taking 23 damage on average per attack before soak. If you haven't reached the max damage, dropping just 3 of those suckers does ~69 damage on average per person with a triple soak hit. Take just a single Soul Ice, make that ~92 damage (quadruple soak hit) and chances are pretty good that you've wiped out the vast majority of the faction there.


AOE is every bit as nasty as pets, and a heck of a lot faster. This is why there has been talk of revisiting the balance on AOE. We have Deep Spellcraft hardly worth the effort, and other AOEs that are absurdly powerful. But AOE balance is a topic for a different thread, and I've gone off in my recreational mathematics sidetrack long enough.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:50 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Top of the line Holy Champion AOE is Cloak of the Eternal Flame AOE if the information is accurate.

1 AP 10MP 36 max per target 360 max damage over all when at max level.
Fire damage obviously.

Not being self generative is kind of a big set back even here.

I mean you may think energise would break the hell out of this but Shepherds generally have their own big tricks to use mana on once they get to their exits. Except maybe an advocate who has finished blessing people.
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bidigam
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teksura, what is the point of your post?
You are arguing with me, fine, but what point are you trying to drive? It feels like you just need to argue but, it has no direction, like a man fist-fighting the air.

My point was not: AoE is worse than pets.
My point was this: comparing NClash with NW, pets have become more of a Primary choice for mass effect power multipliers than AoE. In NW times, pets were very secondary to AoE, and pretty much a thing of medium/small faction warfare.
This has changed. This was good. Pets are now stronGER compared to AoE, in the eyes of one who used to play NW.

Now to my point in this thread:
Do pets need nerf? No I don't think so. Game needs greater power multiplier.
Is there anything you want to say about those points? Otherwise you are just wasting time. You are working hard to prove that you win an argument that nobody is really making. Also why don't you calculate how much damage stored you can have with 20 nether hounds? It would not be too far from 5k damage. The thing is, loading time is greater with larger risks.

My faction don't have 7 mortals. I cannot summon 40 everytime not even under threats. My WM will summon around 15 hounds. Because faction mates also need to prepare for raid. When I summon 20 hounds I am pushing it.
All of your contradicting me is useless, I have this reality much more solidly in my mind than whatever counter argument you might propose. Because they are ultimately void.
Summoning a huge pet horde is a big gamble, in the case of a WM it is a gamble with your faction mate's resources in addition to your own. There is no point summoning a huge pet hoard: the solution that kills 10 pets kills 40 of them.
When your pet hoard gets intercepted by a flag cap, it is very frustrating. You lost the gamble. So all in all, petmasters have "strong fate" in this breath: they have great frustrations and great rewards. They can have all the way up with a huge amount of win, then go all the way down, to catastrophic failures. My WM has experienced both. But this is good, they play very different than other classes, and if someone wants that kind of play style, petmasters are delivering it.

I wish all those who want pets to be nerfed, that they play with pets, and share in the win and fails of a petmaster, then after that, let them say what they think, when it so happens that their hoard gets intercepted two or three times before raid.
Also consider what happens to petmasters when a faction is raided everyday or every other day. That is right, it becomes very difficult for them.
Anyways, I am getting the feeling I am wasting my time, so, Ill stop here.

NB: Tek, a successful DH returns 9 MP; now it can no longer be buffed, so you have 70% chance of having 10 MP return that costs 1 Mp to try.
The moment those mortals begin to gain innate evasion values (they level up dont they?) the return reduces.
My guestimation, DH cost 1 AP and returns about 6.5 MP. More than SM, true, but you are taking MP from your faction mates.
Is DH worthwhile? For my WM? holy fuck yes. It is no longer useful in active combat as it once was; but I just could not do it without DH.
DH is the heart and soul of my WM build, talk about a 20 cp skill that enables your build.

So again, I read your post and I go: wtf... who is arguing DH is not good?
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bidigam wrote:
Teksura, what is the point of your post?



Responding to yours. I thought the quotes made that rather clear. When you suggested that Pets were the best "power multiplier" and downplayed AOE, I simply showed that AOE is not to be downplayed.

The rest was me pointing out that I had already responded to your point in my previous post, or that you were accusing me of being wrong on null issues that I hadn't even brought up.


Last edited by Teksura on Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:51 pm; edited 2 times in total
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dodge is no longer increased as you level up innately.

Dodge is now skill, item and guild based.

Been this way since the start of nexus clash I believe.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Because you specifically requested it:

bidigam wrote:
So again, I read your post and I go: wtf... who is arguing DH is not good?

bidigam wrote:
@Tek
1. You are correct saying 7 mortals can maintain a decent sized WM hoard.

[snip]

But in all that lies several assumptions: (1) assumption that 7 players will choose to remain mortals forever so that they have no use for their MP so that WM can summon pets. What I am noticing in practice is that mortals are game until they find use for that MP, and then the restrictions (often in form of complaints) begin.



I'm sorry you have a problem with me responding to your points as you present them, but that's how discussions work. You say a thing, I read and respond to it, you read and respond to that. If you don't want people responding to the things you say, it might be wise to not say them. I do think you're being very silly here. You made a point about Dark Heart requiring people to drain, and I've been making points showing how easy and viable it is to have those people to drain. Now you're singling out the fact that I had responded to your post on that matter and pretending that it had been some major issue. It was a single paragraph in my post, said in reply to a similarly sized paragraph. Are you really that blown away that someone would offer a paragraph to reply to a thing you said?
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bidigam
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 7:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Teksura wrote:
bidigam wrote:
Teksura, what is the point of your post?



Responding to yours. I thought the quotes made that rather clear. When you suggested that Pets were the best "power multiplier" and downplayed AOE, I simply showed that AOE is not to be downplayed.


I was all along comparing NClash to NW balance. You might have missed that. Is it more clear now?

Also what do you have to say to the point that Petmasters are able to accumulate 10k potential of damage for a raid? Can any nuker do that in this breath? Even if we give them preparation time?

Pets did come more to the fore because AoE receded in power quite a bit from NW model, and that was good. Do you want to argue more on that point? Because that is the point I was making.

Your extensive use of quotations is just a way of removing phrases out of their context. You should consider stop doing that. A little bit is fine, but you are overdoing it as usual.

"Responding" is not a point. This thread raises the question whether pets are overpowered or not. I pointed to the fact that this is a false question. It is beneficial for the game to have "wide effect power multipliers" and that nerfing pets would not be good for NClash. I said a bunch of other things too, trying to explain and give support and a rationale for this main point.

If you disagree with me on that point then bring your arguments. If you agree with that but do not agree with some of the things I said then you have to state it in this manner: "I agree with you that blah blah blah( main point), but (on the support points) 1. blah 2. blah 3. blah"

But when you enter a thread only to argue with someone having no point to contribute to that thread, and your post goes like: "quote, you are wrong I am right; quote; you are wrong, I am right" etc, then there is a name that is given to that, we call it trolling (one of the techniques of trolling).

Why you do it is beyond me, because you clearly gain nothing from it.

So do you have a point yes or no? Otherwise just don't post.


edit: Tek, you need to have a point, or your contribution is garbage.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well I suppose a HC could pump out 18000 damage in 50 ap if you had say enough shepherd on hand to energize them with over 400 mp.

There are better uses of that 400 mp though.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:10 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bidigam wrote:
Also what do you have to say to the point that Petmasters are able to accumulate 10k potential of damage for a raid? Can any nuker do that in this breath? Even if we give them preparation time?

I don't think there is a stronghold with a meatshield that large.

bidigam wrote:
Pets did come more to the fore because AoE receded in power quite a bit from NW model, and that was good. Do you want to argue more on that point? Because that is the point I was making.


Already did. I showed exactly how AoE did not recede in power, was still a major thing, and was not to be downplayed.

bidigam wrote:
Your extensive use of quotations is just a way of removing phrases out of their context. You should consider stop doing that. A little bit is fine, but you are overdoing it as usual.


You're the one who keeps breaking up your post for it! You think it's wrong to reply to each point you raise individually when you go so far as to number them?


bidigam wrote:
"Responding" is not a point. This thread raises the question whether pets are overpowered or not. I pointed to the fact that this is a false question. It is beneficial for the game to have "wide effect power multipliers" and that nerfing pets would not be good for NClash. I said a bunch of other things too, trying to explain and give support and a rationale for this main point.

And I replied to each of your points correcting oversights you had made. Are you implying that nobody should be replying to you?

bidigam wrote:
If you disagree with me on that point then bring your arguments. If you agree with that but do not agree with some of the things I said then you have to state it in this manner: "I agree with you that blah blah blah( main point), but (on the support points) 1. blah 2. blah 3. blah"

Already done quite a bit. Sometimes before you even raised the point. You may recall that I was pointing our that I had already made the argument that answered your point in the post that had proceeded yours.

bidigam wrote:
But when you enter a thread only to argue with someone having no point to contribute to that thread, and your post goes like: "quote, you are wrong I am right; quote; you are wrong, I am right" etc, then there is a name that is given to that, we call it trolling (one of the techniques of trolling).


So stop doing this!
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Shadok
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:13 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tek, get a clue. Bidi's trolling you. Stop justifying Bidi's methods by responding. YHBT. YHL. HAND.

bidigam wrote:
Teksura wrote:
bidigam wrote:
Teksura, what is the point of your post?



Responding to yours. I thought the quotes made that rather clear. When you suggested that Pets were the best "power multiplier" and downplayed AOE, I simply showed that AOE is not to be downplayed.


I was all along comparing NClash to NW balance. You might have missed that. Is it more clear now?

Also what do you have to say to the point that Petmasters are able to accumulate 10k potential of damage for a raid? Can any nuker do that in this breath? Even if we give them preparation time?

Pets did come more to the fore because AoE receded in power quite a bit from NW model, and that was good. Do you want to argue more on that point? Because that is the point I was making.

Your extensive use of quotations is just a way of removing phrases out of their context. You should consider stop doing that. A little bit is fine, but you are overdoing it as usual.

"Responding" is not a point. This thread raises the question whether pets are overpowered or not. I pointed to the fact that this is a false question. It is beneficial for the game to have "wide effect power multipliers" and that nerfing pets would not be good for NClash. I said a bunch of other things too, trying to explain and give support and a rationale for this main point.

If you disagree with me on that point then bring your arguments. If you agree with that but do not agree with some of the things I said then you have to state it in this manner: "I agree with you that blah blah blah( main point), but (on the support points) 1. blah 2. blah 3. blah"

But when you enter a thread only to argue with someone having no point to contribute to that thread, and your post goes like: "quote, you are wrong I am right; quote; you are wrong, I am right" etc, then there is a name that is given to that, we call it trolling (one of the techniques of trolling).

Why you do it is beyond me, because you clearly gain nothing from it.

So do you have a point yes or no? Otherwise just don't post.


edit: Tek, you need to have a point, or your contribution is garbage.



Thank you for that bidi. On that topic, you may now stop trolling Teksura. By your own definition there, you've just defined how you've been trolling him. Teksura brings up a point, then shows how you're wrong and he's right. That has a name. It's called "Debating". Your goal is always to prove the other dude is wrong in a logical manner during a debate. When a point is not fought against, it's generally expected that the person either agrees or cannot contradict it. When Teksura doesn't respond to a point, you've won that one. Well done.

What you're doing is picking at specific points and contributing nothing, even contradicting yourself. You then drag up that Teksura doesn't respond to everything you say, at the same time saying he shouldn't do so. Reading what I said about debating, when he doesn't reply, it means he agrees with you or cannot logically contradict it.
What you're doing is damaging the thread itself and will lead to derailment and locking. The purpose of threads like this is always to appeal to the dev team and Bob. We're the ones who ultimately come down to a vote of if we should change something or not. Weakening the structure of a thread like you've been doing will only lead to us doing the opposite of what you're saying simply because the other side has made points while all you do is weaken your own position.

I'd like to take a moment here to request that you either cease responding to this topic and pointlessly damaging it or leaving.
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