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Nexus Clash :: View topic - Are Pets too powerful on offense?
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Are Pets too powerful on offense?
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Ongewitter
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 5:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Honestly, just reloading the game page when the pets hit you would help. At least you couldn't just sit there, trying to figure out who owns the pets and getting killed without knowing it.

Well, that or it's just me taking my sweet time checking who's who.
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SuperflyTNT
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 6:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

oblivious wrote:
I'm amending my decision on this and saying that maybe petmasters (or at least WMs, not sure about the rest) are too strong.
I'm amazed by the horde of Hellhounds that a single Wyrm Master can amass. Dark Heart-ing factionmates for MP is ridiculously more efficient than any other method of MP regeneration available to the other petmaster classes. 50 hellhounds per Wyrm Master makes short work of anybody.
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fluffymasterchief
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:11 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

SuperflyTNT wrote:
oblivious wrote:
I'm amending my decision on this and saying that maybe petmasters (or at least WMs, not sure about the rest) are too strong.
I'm amazed by the horde of Hellhounds that a single Wyrm Master can amass. Dark Heart-ing factionmates for MP is ridiculously more efficient than any other method of MP regeneration available to the other petmaster classes. 50 hellhounds per Wyrm Master makes short work of anybody.
That goes especially well with the manabiter. Eat a couple of a full protection spellgems and let the wyrm masters DH. It is glorious. (sadly, pets are still easily countered with potions)
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 7:33 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

On the flip side it took two seraphs to clear those 58 pets out and that is just due to one of them being slow on their healing.

WMs are not MP generative so basically that is the combined mp cycles of an entire faction right there being blown to bits.

I think energize would be more abusable than Dark Heart if more non Light Speaker shepherds got it.

Frankly the reverse rock (tank), paper (pets) and scissors (damage dealers) set up with external influencing classes (support) and hole patcher ("tricksters") seems to be working pretty satisfactorily. There are a few anomalies like non pet interactive Advocates (well there is energize I suppose), non AOE Nexus Champion and the broken as hell Fallen but it should shape up nicely given refinement. Active beats inactive, which is a good thing really.
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bidigam
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Some brief points that are being left to the side but are important to this discussion.

1. When there is talk of "darkheart" there must be talk of "faction size". One less acquainted with the process might say: "look! one WM can make 20 pets in only two days!". What is not said by same person is the fact that the single WM was probably tapping all the MP value of his faction, and if there were two WM they would have to share that MP potential and each would probably end up with 10 pets, because what limits them is the amount of people in their SH willing to give MP.

2. In addition, WM has to hear complaints and pay attention to caveats about each member having a different time schedule for when you should be allowed to use their MP. In other words it is a pain in the ass.

3. All of this, but I mean All of it, can be ruined by a flag recap a day before your scheduled raid; a couple of potions and an aura, and there goes to the drain all your work for the last 2 days, and possibly your faction's hopes of having a successful raid.

4. I can understand that none of you might be interested in the things I said in that wall of text on my previous post in this thread, but here goes simply: Game needs greater power multipliers. Go down this road, removing greater power multipliers from NClash and all you have is Urban Dead, with fancy terminology that means nothing because the numbers repeat across the morality choices in a very boring way.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 10:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with the need for power multipliers.

I greatly prefer the limited AOE pet dominated environment to the NW AOE ALL THE TIME NUKE NUKE NUKE.

Pets are vulnerable, time critical and self decaying prep. Compared to the ancient transcribe aoe system this is greatly preferable, instantaneously cashed in intangible protected prep was a goddam nightmare.

Frankly pets can spur people into engaging in extremely frivolous waste also. The Lich with its cascading ghouls encourages the healthiest raiding practice of summon a few and let them multiply themselves making them flat out the best for high gear raiding. Those 60 hellhounds while shocking and effective probably could have numbered 10-15 and had a similar result. If they were less extravagant they could have used those resources to launch a second raid.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

bidigam wrote:
1. When there is talk of "darkheart" there must be talk of "faction size". One less acquainted with the process might say: "look! one WM can make 20 pets in only two days!". What is not said by same person is the fact that the single WM was probably tapping all the MP value of his faction, and if there were two WM they would have to share that MP potential and each would probably end up with 10 pets, because what limits them is the amount of people in their SH willing to give MP.

Actually, it takes 7 mortals to sustain 1 Defiler exit who does nothing but dark heart people all day. Anything more and folks will be regenerating MP faster than the Defiler can drain it. If that defiler does other things, then obviously they can be sustained by less.

The questions are how many people are able to donate how much MP and how many Defiler Exits are tapping faction-mates for it and how often?

In Nexus War, I had a couple factions who had pretty much solved the whole Dark Heart problem in a way everyone in the faction was satisfied with. Basically, Defilers could Dark Heart anyone who was at their maximum MP, but only once. It took about 2:45 for that person to regenerate to full unless they were a Nexus Champion. Once they were full, they were fair game. If Raids were planned, this may have been put on hold a few hours before the raid so that Raiders could have their full MP. Because the amount of time required to regain the lost MP was so small, the vast majority of the time a character would regain their lost MP long before they would log in, or even consider spending their MP. We didn't have to bother with that silliness like organizing times, and we all sort of accepted that we were all on the same team and we shouldn't be biting each others heads off because the timing went a little bad and we logged in with 44 MP rather than 49 MP.


bidigam wrote:
3. All of this, but I mean All of it, can be ruined by a flag recap a day before your scheduled raid; a couple of potions and an aura, and there goes to the drain all your work for the last 2 days, and possibly your faction's hopes of having a successful raid.

There are a couple problems here. First, not every flag recap drains the entire pet shield. Most recaps involve grabbing the flag and legging it. That said, sometimes a recap team will chose to be dicks and kill the pet shield if they have a tank with them. But not every recap is like this.

Next, 2 days is silly. Your pets won't last that long before they need rejuvenated. Most of the typical pets used for raids run themselves dry after 25 hours. But if you have a pet who is 24 hours old, then they will despawn long before they do much of anything. Realistically, 20 hours is a much more reasonable time frame in the sense that you wouldn't gain anything if you start summoning them sooner.


The one break from this is the Wyrm Master, who has the added boon of Nether Hounds. What that means is that while their Pack Master Hellhounds are on par with Judgemasters, Ghouls, and Skeletons (Balance issues between Ghouls and Skeletons aside), the Wyrm Master has the option to spend extra time to have their pets exceed all of the above. But they are by no means forced to do that. Nether Hounds are a bonus, not a restriction.


But that aside, a petmaster still has the ability to summon pets on the spot in the raid. A Wyrm Master can Dark Heart their enemies, and summon a monstrous number of pets. A Lightspeaker can pray to their hearts content, and will surely end up immune to MP drain and with a dangerous number of Judgemasters. If anything, it's the Lich who has a difficult time here. Their advantage is that they effectivly get a discount on summoning pets, as the Corpses are readily available and they don't need to call for home delivery. However, their MP recovery ability drains them of HP, which can't even be recovered by Wisps or Wights anymore. That really ought to be removing status ticks from Sorcerer's Might...

bidigam wrote:
4. I can understand that none of you might be interested in the things I said in that wall of text on my previous post in this thread, but here goes simply: Game needs greater power multipliers. Go down this road, removing greater power multipliers from NClash and all you have is Urban Dead, with fancy terminology that means nothing because the numbers repeat across the morality choices in a very boring way.


Can you define "power multipliers" a little better? I'd like to see some examples of what power multipliers you already see in the game, and how they can be made greater power multipliers.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:31 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The self replication of ghouls on the other hand is the strongest pet ability in the game. You need to summon less pets to get a potent force and you can do so on the cheap.

It would be nice if the wisp tree had a method of healing your average active lich though. As is they are very useless. Skeletal monstrosity is pretty great though so liches just need the stay alive pet jimmied with a tad.

I regard Nether Hounds as a trap, double investment for something inferior to two pack master hellhounds working together. You have to be pretty drat careful to get the most out of the initial hellhound to make it worth it. It encourages further over investment in your pet hoard and slower more careful summoning practices. You can pull a net benefit out of the skill due to the nether's much nicer mp total but the time related risks and micromanagement just seems a poor decision to me.
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Teksura
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 08, 2012 11:46 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah, Ghouls vs Skeletons are a bit nuts. In many ways, the only problem is the presence of Bone Seeker. The skill is only useful or desirable for the Bonesword Lich to improve their free Skeletons gained from kills. Skeletons don't really have a purpose they are supposed to fill other than hitting as hard as a Ghoul without any of the bonuses gained by having Ghouls. This could be fine. The Lich could be designed so they are all supposed to get Ghouls, and the Skeletons only pop up when one murders someone with a Bonesword or wants the Fossil Monstrosity. Except without Bone Seeker, the Skeletons are kind of rubbish, which hits the Bonesword Lich pretty hard.


I dunno about it being a trap. I'd grab it and not think about it. Pets need rejuvenated sometimes anyway, so why not get a little more out of them when that happens? Summoning a new Hellhound is ok in some cases but what if one of the old Hellhounds was summoned yesterday? If you have a pet sitting with 10 AP, it's better to rejuvenate them than it is to summon a second pet unless you're in the middle of combat. The pet lasts longer because you aren't paying 2 AP (1 per pet) for the next 10 ticks while the old one despawns.


I wouldn't go out of my way to try and get Nether Hounds specifically for a raid unless we felt that we needed all we could get.
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corky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DUMBGoose wrote:
On the flip side it took two seraphs to clear those 58 pets out and that is just due to one of them being slow on their healing.


I don't think the 58 pets is a good example, it took me the greater part of a week doing nothing but DH to get to that point, and that number is completely unsustainable, if I hadn't of used them then they would have all been gone by now anyway.

(also it was around 50 hounds and 8 tentacles I think).


Last edited by corky on Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:48 am; edited 1 time in total
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:46 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am saying it is a good example!

Just because you are tanking doesn't mean you should be able to handle infinite pets!

Taking two Seraphs to do the job shows that:
A) My god seraphs can slaughter a lot of pets
B) There a limit to how many pets you can easily take when they aren't totally immunable
C) The tankee is under stress, this is a GOOD thing it means there is a distinction between combat class tanking and random caster with and aura spell pseudotanking. Likely in favour of the soakier guy with more health

Over tasking an active tank with pets takes a big time investment and obscene waste though.
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corky
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

DUMBGoose wrote:

Over tasking an active tank with pets takes a big time investment and obscene waste though.


They weren't over tasked though, the second seraph tanked about 45-50 of the pets and never went below half hp, the first only died because they were negligent at healing themselves.
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DUMBGoose
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 6:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

If you are hurting someone faster than he can manage to heal himself I would say that individual was over tasked.

Every seraph is directly player controlled leading to your know human error and performance tied to page refreshes all that good stuff.

I would say the first seraph weakened the pets for the second seraph.

You have the exact account though.
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bidigam
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 8:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

@Tek
1. You are correct saying 7 mortals can maintain a decent sized WM hoard. 7 mortals produce 7 MP per tick. Considering a MOTP hound costs 18 MP (cabal) to summon and have around an excess ap of about 100 (meaning the extra ap they have above their MP) so each MP point can maintain decay of 5 pet, thus 7 MP per tick means maintaining costs of 35-40 hounds. That is how far those 7 mortals can help a WM, beyond that value they can't anymore. If there are two WM for those 7 mortals, well 40 hounds is what you can maintain. Each WM will have 20. (this is not an exact calculation, more like a very rough estimation)

But in all that lies several assumptions: (1) assumption that 7 players will choose to remain mortals forever so that they have no use for their MP so that WM can summon pets. What I am noticing in practice is that mortals are game until they find use for that MP, and then the restrictions (often in form of complaints) begin. (2) Assumption that the pets will not be lost by an raid/recap. (3) Assumption that WM will want to be nailed to the ground and do just that. (4)Assumption that when fortifications are broken, there will not be someone with an aura, two potions and healing items and be active. Because that is all that it takes to render pets useless. (5) Assumption no active defender/attacker has the "pet messing skills". Most chars are reaching T3 now, and slowly will figure out how to use their skills. If pets are important, so are anti-pet skills.

3. Again, experience can be different to all players. But my experience is this: Every single recap I have experienced so far except for one time(*) they sat there and wasted the pet horde.
Call them dicks all you want. They are not being "dicks", they are doing their duty.
Why on earth should they leave a pethorde of an enemy faction to remain intact?

(*) That one time when my pethorde was not wasted it was because they came unprepared, without potions, and the pets ate them.

4. Yes. What I call "greater power multipliers" or perhaps better "wide effect power multipliers" are these power multipliers of a greater magnitude. Because lots of things can be called "power multiplier". The greater power multipliers is what allow a small raid party to be able to successfully raid a faction larger than their own, sometimes through active defense. In NW the most recognizable greater power multiplier was AoE first and above all else, and in second place, more of a "small faction thing" were pets. Potions were also a kind of a greater power multiplier in NW because with them a single defender could overcome an entire raiding party with little difficulty.

In NClash, potions were reduced to be under control, and AoE was also put down, becoming more of an innate thing, and not as powerful as before at that. Pets have become the first choice of greater power multiplier.

Anyways, I feel like I repeat myself, all of this I posted already on that long ass post.
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ChesterKatz
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PostPosted: Sat Jun 09, 2012 10:52 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

corky wrote:
They weren't over tasked though, the second seraph tanked about 45-50 of the pets and never went below half hp, the first only died because they were negligent at healing themselves.

It's actually worse than that. The first Seraph just reviewed his log and realized that he completely forgot to drink his death potion before tanking. Without that huge error, the first tank should have cleared most, if not all, of the pets.
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